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    About Face.

    By Sean Moran, Created on: 14/10/2008, Last updated on: 13/04/2014

    » One olde axiom that comes to mind is, '[i:3b539sim]If you can't say something nice, then keep your mouth s.h.u.t.[/i:3b539sim]' Just a thread that pertains to one of the cultural differences one might notice in venturing from a typical 'westernised' society of the assertive kind to the shores of...

    • klauskent commented : differential between trading parties. Your own status actually determines what respect you will get from those Thais in your periphery. The trouble is, it is not often easy for Thais to discern exactly what status level Farangs should be afforded. Years ago they would judge us by our clothing, but that has changed after they began to realize that some very wealthy Farangs have a propensity to dress in shorts and t-shirt everyday. The next detection ploy they generally use is engaging you in (what we feel is completely superficial and irrelevant) small-talk. The whole conversation is a subterfuge by which they asses your level of wealth, power, class, and also how well you behave within the boundaries of the Buddhist schemata. They use this knowledge not just to place your level in the society but also to determine what (if any) long and short term benefits they can derive from you. I can not place enough emphasis on this. When you first meet a Thai, those first few minutes are crucial and basically they are trying to place you within the system. This is the point where they will generally offer inclusion or exclusion from a variety of specific social group rankings and any requisite benefits that can be obtained or denied, respectively. After this process is completed, (in a negotiation setting) they must now discern just how willing you are to part with your money. Are you rich and money doesn't matter, are you of average means but very generous, or are you not quite aware of how things work and thus naive enough to pay a bit more than something is worth? This is where the rules of engagement come into play. Using a variety of different methods you can (usually) obtain what you wish and be fairly happy. But context, participants, and setting are very important features in the equation. Try to keep in mind that much of the culture is based on making merit in order to achieve rewards, in this life- or the next. If a Thai gets you to pay 4 times what something is worth I really don't think they feel they have done you a disservice. Reward systems are based on interpersonal relationships. Ian Mabbett refers to these as Lopsided relationships, with the person of higher status offering some tangible reward and the person of lower status merely offering in return some form of allegiance or respect. Therefore, if you are respected and treated well in the business negotiation it is reasonable to assume paying a higher premium is actually socially acceptable. Respecting culture is great but, If you find yourself paying 10 times what something is worth then not only have you done yourself a great disservice but you are disabling the social and economic leveling mechanisms inherent within the culture. This can have the short term consequence of (what Carl Marx refers to as) mystifying the indigenous. This process of mystification can easily be misconstrued and evaluated by Thais as either, 1) the reward for merit philosophy or 2) The Patron client relationship described by Mabbet. The resultant conditions are an entire culture of Thais finding it reasonable to assume, All westerners are, 1) Rich 2) Have power, ascendant personalities and mobility, therefore permanently wealthy, and 3) There is absolutely no harm or consequence to asking 10 times the actual value of a good or service. This is something we absolutely cannot blame on Thai people. This was a western invention and we as Farangs introduced it. Klaus

    • 61 replies, 76,687 views

    Forum

    Farang and their seemingly paradoxical ways

    By Mr. Surin Province, Created on: 17/10/2008, Last updated on: 17/04/2010

    » As a long-historied Farang resident myself, comfortable and understanding, I have to ask the age old question regarding Westerners that find it necessary to stay/live here while finding life so objectionable in many ways. Why is this so? I've experienced this throughout Asia {in particular the LOS}...

    • mythaihouse commented : I'm a w/m farang married to a Thai woman for the past 20 years, which has been full of up's and downs! We have been living in Thailand for the past 5 years, prior to that in N.A. I've been doing my best to assimilate into Thai society the best I can, but at times find it increasingly dificult. The Thais in Bangkok are more sophisticated and therefore easier to communicate with but they don't allow you to get to close. In comparison, I have a home in Chiang Mai, which my wife and I have owned for the past twenty years. The neighbours have all been living there for the same time and I've seen children growing up and going on to University. My immediate neighbour's really have nothing to do with me, know matter how hard I attempt to make friend's, they just keep to their own. The language could be one factor, but my thai is not that bad, that I can't communicate. I befriended a shopkeeper close to my home in Mae Rim, where he advised me that Thai's and farang's don't mix, and I wondered why? You only have to live here a short time, not come as a walking ATM tourist, to really see how welcome you are in this country, and the indifference shown by Thais. I've very rarely seen a genuine smile from a Thai directed towards me, even if I should smile at them first, they just don't see us, it's like were invisible. Any political party which calls themselves TRT (Thais love Thais), has to explain an awful lot, about the psyche and personality of the Thai people. Even Thaksin used the word Farang often as PM, which in my opinion is a condescending racial word. I've travelled to China, India, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Cambodia and Sinapore. All these countries convey warmth and genuine friendliness towards me and I'm sure other foreign travellers who visit there. What a refreshing experience it is! When I return to Thailand it's the same old attitude, the Thais with their non-smiles and indifference towards most foreigners. The people who are really the most friendly in Thailand, are the ones with the least amount and the neighbourhood of Thai Muslims, whom I got to know quite well, living near a Muslim community, they were so poor, but very friendly. The middle and upper middle class families really want nothing to do with us, because women who go with a foreign man are looked down upon by Thai society! The Thais' also think they're the best country in SE Asia, how wrong they are!!

    • ccarbaugh commented : Yes! I completely agree with all that has been said. My experience (beginning 35 years ago,) has been that we- "farangs" are completely invisible to the vast majority of Thais [b:34nsmslp]except when there is a perceived profit motive[/b:34nsmslp]. For me, the positives of living in Thailand still outweigh the negatives but I do feel that (most)Thais are blatantly racist and nationalistic. I cope by telling myself that "it's their loss." In nearly all interactions, [b:34nsmslp]they only want to relate to me as a "customer[/b:34nsmslp]" - exclusively. I do miss the personal level of contact though. Brilliantly and eloquently expressed by "MyThaiHouse"..... [color=#0000FF:34nsmslp]I've been doing my best to assimilate into Thai society the best I can, but at times find it increasingly dificult. The Thais in Bangkok are more sophisticated and therefore easier to communicate with but they don't allow you to get to close. In comparison, I have a home in Chiang Mai, which my wife and I have owned for the past twenty years. The neighbours have all been living there for the same time and I've seen children growing up and going on to University. My immediate neighbour's really have nothing to do with me, know matter how hard I attempt to make friend's, they just keep to their own. The language could be one factor, but my thai is not that bad, that I can't communicate. I befriended a shopkeeper close to my home in Mae Rim, where he advised me that Thai's and farang's don't mix, and I wondered why? You only have to live here a short time, not come as a walking ATM tourist, to really see how welcome you are in this country, and the indifference shown by Thais. I've very rarely seen a genuine smile from a Thai directed towards me, even if I should smile at them first, they just don't see us, it's like were invisible. Any political party which calls themselves TRT (Thais love Thais), has to explain an awful lot, about the psyche and personality of the Thai people. Even Thaksin used the word Farang often as PM, which in my opinion is a condescending racial word.[/color:34nsmslp]

    • taysahai commented : [quote="Eggmeng":172gwzk6] I think K**g Narai did what he had to do to keep the Europeans happy at that stage in Siam's history. He probably didn't have a whole lot of choice. I would not venture to say how this reflects on his character. But assuredly there were a lot of people who were unhappy about how a relatively select few enriched themselves by cooperating with the Europeans who were raping the land and the people (often literally in some cases). As a foreigner there was perhaps less sympathy for Phaulkon than for others. That would stand to reason. But he was executed I think, largely for his perceived crimes. [/quote:172gwzk6] That was a rough time in Thailand's history. King Narai was portrayed to have brought solidarity and progress to the Thai Kingdom. Before his rule their was a power struggle for titles, posts, and even for the throne between royalty. He brought peace by excluding royalty from posts within his government, and bringing in close friends from all castes and gender to govern. The exclusion of elitists is what killed Falcon. That would be interesting to see the movie, whether Falcon would be portrayed as the greedy foreign spokesman of french influence over the Throne in an effort to conquer Thailand, or as the humble grecian who befriended Narai through acquaintance of a thai diplomat who was shipwrecked at the same time as Falcon, and who's role in the government was at Narai's request, managing the foreign trade accounts, organizing foreign ships port of call, and the head foreman of palaces in Lopburi. Knowing the old world xenophobia of Thailand, which still exists today, and knowing the unarguable facts about Narai's life, I believe Falcon was a good man. It is ironic that the recorded history in thailand by the Royal Ensign portrays Falcon as a good man completely deserving his title from Narai the great, while history recorded outside of Thailand contradicts. It is ironic because of Thailand's known xenophobia towards foreigners, this would seem like an easy way to discredit this Falang, but instead, it is Foreigners discrediting Foreigners. You might notice I am very interested in this period of history, taking the enormous amount of time to translate documents filled with Rachasap (royal vocabulary), so I am interested to see a third party perspective, and I will look for the book you recommend. We both know that because the history pertains to royalty, the history will be lacking anything of negative substance, but also you have to consider ulterior motives possibly of the British to discredit French influence.

    • 57 replies, 74,821 views

    Forum

    IS Thailand Safe?

    By Wally, Created on: 08/11/2008, Last updated on: 07/12/2008

    » Thailand is relatively safe, many of the statistics you cite are largely Thai-Thai. All countries have areas best avoided, Thailand is no different, but for the most part I think it is quite safe. Mind you this will vary depending whether you are in Chiang Mai or Pattaya.

    • Realist commented : No it is not safe. There can be murders all around you but as long as you are not aware of them, as long as they are not in the paper, you can live blissfully all the time thinking you are safe. Foreigners can live in a small village, have no access to English newspapers, and may be unable to speak fluent Thai. So their world is quite small. (I hope no one is insulted by this but look at the accuracy of the statement). But the Nationmaster website is the best statistical evidence available. Unless someone comes up with something better, I have to look at the statistics as reasonably accurate. And if a crime is committed against you (the foreigner) do you think there will be any justice? Do you think the police will make an honest attempt to find the guilty party? Or might it just be possible that it was the police? It is not only dangerous in a criminal sense. The same Thai mindset that you see exhibited in the service at restaurants, the driving habits, the stupid and select enforcement (or lack of inforcement) of laws, the corruption, etc is the same mindset that performs maintenance on the Thai aircraft you fly, the same mindset that perfoms major surgery on you, and on and on. One poster said that if you keep your head down, don't get involved, it can be safe. If you live in Thailand that is probably good advice. Getting married or getting deeply involved (land purchases under the wife's name for example) can have some bad consequences. So in my opinion it is dangerous. The books "Money Number 1" etc etc were written with some shread of accuracy. And as the world economy turns downward, as tourist numbers decline, crime in the already high crime areas like Pattaya, will only get higher.

    • Martinus commented : [quote="Realist":3gdceg9y]No it is not safe. There can be murders all around you but as long as you are not aware of them, as long as they are not in the paper, you can live blissfully all the time thinking you are safe. Foreigners can live in a small village, have no access to English newspapers, and may be unable to speak fluent Thai. So their world is quite small. (I hope no one is insulted by this but look at the accuracy of the statement). But the Nationmaster website is the best statistical evidence available. Unless someone comes up with something better, I have to look at the statistics as reasonably accurate. And if a crime is committed against you (the foreigner) do you think there will be any justice? Do you think the police will make an honest attempt to find the guilty party? Or might it just be possible that it was the police? It is not only dangerous in a criminal sense. The same Thai mindset that you see exhibited in the service at restaurants, the driving habits, the stupid and select enforcement (or lack of inforcement) of laws, the corruption, etc is the same mindset that performs maintenance on the Thai aircraft you fly, the same mindset that perfoms major surgery on you, and on and on. One poster said that if you keep your head down, don't get involved, it can be safe. If you live in Thailand that is probably good advice. Getting married or getting deeply involved (land purchases under the wife's name for example) can have some bad consequences. So in my opinion it is dangerous. The books "Money Number 1" etc etc were written with some shread of accuracy. And as the world economy turns downward, as tourist numbers decline, crime in the already high crime areas like Pattaya, will only get higher.[/quote:3gdceg9y] Man you must lead a very upsetting life and have a neck pain from looking over your shoulder You just wrote down what is the case anywhere At least here we do not have to worry about fools shooting us for fun while driving at the highway

    • 13 replies, 20,072 views

    Forum

    Some comments from typical Thai lady.

    By Anonymous, Created on: 29/01/2008, Last updated on: 25/05/2009

    » Just some comments from Thai lady side, please be known that my comments are from only my experience. Why do we look down Farang with dark woman? - They don't have the minimum standard for their wife. ( I have no complain marrying with bar girl. What the reason do you choose her to be your...

    • Anonymous commented : Dear Thai Lady, I think this might have something to do with the official Thai policy towards foreigners. Instead of inviting productive and serious farangs to a permanent stay in Thailand, the various Thai governments wants to exclude foreigners’ from settling and instead encouraging mass tourism, marketing Thailand as a party zone for party animals. Hence you get lots of brainless farangs desperately looking for a fast party with a strict time limit to get “lucky”. Many behave like animals. I think this is a matter of Thai politicians looking to twist fast money out of farangs pockets without taking any obligations for letting “colonialists” stay in the Kingdom on a more fair and committing basis. As a business man I can honestly tell you there is no such thing as fast money. This is a Thai/Japanese tradition; If foreigners have something Thailand needs/wants; buy it, copy it, steal it or take it and send the farangs out afterwards. ASAP. I totally disagree with AD in his reply to you. Thailand has invited white trash en masse just in order to rip them off as fast as possible instead of inviting “white gold” to stay and contribute to Thai society over a long period of time. What you have asked for you has got. I have seen it with my own eyes. I do not understand what there is to complain about. If you want to see a change in this, like I do, you should talk about it with some Thai politicians. I MHO you should find out what you want in Thailand. 1) Fast money and bad behavior from ignorant tourists 2) No money but keeping the streets around Nana clean of white trash 3) Good farangs and lots but slow money OR; 4) No farangs and No money from farangs I know you Thais want to have fast money, good behavior and no farangs permanently staying at same time, but I am afraid that is impossible. You must take a pick. Best regards, Hans

    • Anonymous commented : Hi AD, Probably not as often as you, AD, there are other places in the world to see, you know. Besides I have stated several times before that I am in this forum to learn about Thailand and not to teach Thais or farangs living in LOS how to be or do. I sometimes do disagree with you but for me that is not a problem at all. You have your opinions and I have mine. I fail to see why we should mean exactly the same about everything. I can tell you a secret AD: Sometimes I even agree 100% with Adam`s opinions. This specific time is one of the rather few times I totally disagreed with you. “Thai lady 10th ..............I am sincerely sorry, and feel ashamed at the behavior of some farang men i have seen in Thailand. Please believe me when i say that we are not all like them.” AD; I can also feel disgusted when I see the behavior of some tourists in Thailand but I do not accept that farangs in general are blamed for the bad behavior of a few. Neither do I apologize for it. Thai authorities have constantly denied fair play for constructive farangs to settle in LOS just in order to import masses of white trash on 30-days tourist visas in order to milk them for money, so exactly what do you or ”Thai-lady” expect from farang party animals, AD? Usually they drink themselves senseless, Drunk, fat, frustrated, ugly, uneducated 20-65 YO Scandinavians, Aussies and Germans are screaming in the streets with a 20 YO Thai girl in each arm. Farangs speaking lousy English and those of them being most familiar with Thailand has even picked up some kind of gutter-pasa-thai instead of real pasa thai. What a shame! But why should you or I apologize for them? I to go to Wenzhou , Xiamen and Dalian in China in April, and if I have the time I will visit Bangkok in order to straighten a few things out concerning my account in Tanakarn Khrung Theep (Bangkok Bank) . Best regards, Hans

    • GORDON commented : HI TO ALL THAI LADY,S. I AM A FARANG LIVING HERE WITH MY THAI WIFE AND FAMILY AND OCCASIONALY GO OUT FOR A NIGHT OUT WITH THE BOYS . I AND MY FRIENDS ENJOY LOOKING AT ALL THE BEAUTIFULL YOUNG LADIES BUT WE DO NOT CARE TO SEE GIRLS BEING MAULED BY STRANGERS OR TEMPORARY FRIENDS[SO CALLED BOYFRIENDS I.E. 1 MONTH]. THAT BEHAVIOUR IS NOT WHAT WE SEE AT HOME . IT IS DRUNKEN BEHAVIOUR OFTEN ENCOURAGED BY THE GIRLS SEEKING TIPS. SOMETIMES IT IS THE GIRLS WHO GRAB YOU UNWELCOMELY , BUT I APPRECIATE THAT ESPECIALY NOW THAT TIMES ARE HARDER THE GIRLS ARE MAKING [ OR TRYING TO ] A LIVING THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN TO SUPPORT A FAMILY AND OFTEN A CHILD OR 2 BY A THAI MAN WHO DUCKS HIS RESPONSABILITY AS MANY DO. I UNDERSTAND THE THAI WAY OF NOT SHOWING AFFECTION IN PUBLIC , AND I BELIEVE THAT IS CHANGING WITH THE YOUNGER GENERATION . I DO NOT FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE HOLDING MY WIFE,S HAND ANYWHERE EVEN BACK IN HER VILLAGE. THAILAND IS CHANGING , I AND MANY ORDINARY FARANGS AGREE WITH YOU THAT A HALFWAY MEASURE IS ALWAYS THE BEST. NO ONE WAY IS ALWAYS RIGHT , LIFE IS ABOUT MAKING COMPROMISES , SHARING VIEWS AND IDEAS . THIS IS THE BEST WAY TO BE HAPPY IN YOUR LIFE WHETHER IT BE A MARRIGE OF THE SAME CULTURE OR THE BLENDING OF 2 . IN A LOT OF WAYS A MARRIAGE BETWEEN 2 DIFFERENT CULTURES IS ENRICHING FOR BOTH PARTIES ENVOLVED. A LOT OF UNDERSTANDING AND PATIENCE IS REQUIRED . SOMETIMES IT IS HARD NOT TO ARGUE TOO STRONGLY ABOUT WHAT SEEM TO US FARANGS AS VERY SILLY SUPERSTITIONS , WE HAVE TO SOMETIMES STOP THINKING LIKE FARANGS AND SOME OF THE SMOKE CLEARS , ALL IT TAKES IS A LITTLE UNDERSTANDING THAT ALL PEOPLE WHETHER FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES OR NOT ARE JUST THAT - DIFFERENT , AND AS WE SAY IN THE WEST - MEN ARE FROM MARS / WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS . PLEASE TRY NOT TO JUDGE ALL FARANGS BY THE DRUNKEN TOURISTS , THEY FOR THE MOST PART ARE JUST BOYS LET LOOSE IN THE TOY SHOP. ------A SMALL POINT I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IN CLOSING IS THAT I THINK IT UNFAIR TO BLAME THE TOURISTS FOR THE SEX INDUSTRY APART FROM THE OBVIOUS AREAS WHERE IT IS EXPLOITED - BANGKOK/PATTAI/PHUKET TO NAME 3. I READ THAT 95% IS FOR HOME CONSUMPTION , ENCOURAGED BY THE SHY VICTORIAN CUSTOMS OF THAI COURTSHIP AND LACK OF SERIOUS SEX EDUCATION FOR YOUNG LADIES . PLEASE DON,T TAKE MY COMMENTS AS CRITISISIM OF THAILAND IT IS JUST MY VIEWS AFTER DISCUSSIONS WITH MY WIFE . WE HAVE BEEN MARRIED FOR MORE THAN 3 YEARS AND STILL LEARNING FROM EACH OTHER. A BLESSING TO YOU ALL WHO READ THIS - BE HAPPY . GORDON - Sorry to all this is is uppercase , at the time I posted I was new to posting.

    • 49 replies, 67,566 views

    Forum

    Just to express my feeling.

    By Anonymous, Created on: 12/02/2008, Last updated on: 01/03/2008

    » Dear All, I have read many interesting topics here. Mostly, were written about Thai women. Some have bad experience with bar girls, but saying in the big picture as Thai women. Those who have been suffered from bar girls questioned why do bad stories hit them and blamed their ex. I, as a not-bar...

    • Anonymous commented : just making problems for both parties. Better if people spent a little time for the right man or woman. However PS, I have heard about several good and lasting relationships amongst Bar girls and farang tourists. What concerns your ex-(farang) boyfriend I think he got what he deserved. Best regards, Hans

    • 28 replies, 15,322 views

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