gohmer commented : I knew when I posted this I would get some heat. No problem, I'm used to it. Everyone had very good counter points and I appreciate it. I will only comment on Khun Na Fianna's comments: [quote:oltbaoav]America can act like a playboy in Thailand and do (pretty much) what they like[/quote:oltbaoav] I'm married and came here to work for an American Company courted by the Thai BOI and far from a Playboy. Also, those that do come here, and there's 2,500,000 Europeans/yr that come here too, to be playboys couldn't do so if Thailand wasn't world renown for offering that type of tourism. [quote:oltbaoav]Pick up your closest 'American History' book. Go to the end. Flick back 5 chapters. This is the point where our histories diverge. Edit to say: I'm European[/quote:oltbaoav] That's exactly what I was referring to. America rejected European elitism, autocratic rule, imperialism, etc from its beginning. For example: 40 million Germans, 15 million Asians, 45 million Africans, 30 million Irish, etc, etc all leaving those countries because of economic, religious, racial prejudices, and endless wars. [quote:oltbaoav]Don't forget Thailands neighbours too!!![/quote:oltbaoav] Again, read some history. Vietnam, Laos - if America hadn't been here, Thailand wouldn't have a Monarchy today, it too would be communist. Consider Thai history from 1970-1980 with communists. Remember the 1978 surrender of Thai communists. Also, America wasn't fighting Vietnam, it was fighting the Soviet Union's spread of communism and their mandate to end capitalism and democracy (something that has helped Thailand prosper since the end of WWII). Well, we won that war in 1990 and since then even China has turned capitalists - now look at their success. Oh, and by the way, we didn't start the cold-war. And, it wasn't America, it was France, that ruthlessly occupied Laos, Vietnam, and Cambodia and stole land from Thailand for 100+ years. [quote:oltbaoav]we dont get up in arms over a T-Shirt[/quote:oltbaoav] No you don't, because if you had a t-shirt like that about the monarchy, you'd go to prison, so dah! Last points: America has been a strategic partner that has helped keep Thailand independent for a long time. Even after WWII when your country sided with Nazis, Fascists, and Imperialistic Japan, the French and English wanted to put Thailand under their rule, it was America that kept Thailand free from their colonialist tendencies. America is also Thailand largest export market and 2nd largest investor after Japan in bringing new, high paying jobs to Thailand like the ones my company brought here that pay salaries between B45,000-95,000/month versus the B5,000/mo that's Thailand minimum wage salary (and they work 40 hrs/wk for that, not 60 hrs/wk)

Na Fianna commented : To Gohmer: [quote:2tni33wp]I'm married and came here to work for an American Company courted by the Thai BOI and far from a Playboy. Also, those that do come here, and there's 2,500,000 Europeans/yr that come here too, to be playboys couldn't do so if Thailand wasn't world renown for offering that type of tourism.[/quote:2tni33wp] Sir I was certainly not referring to your good self with my comment. Although what you state is true it's hardly a situation for ordinary Thai people to be thankful for. Regarding which came first, that will only lead to a pointless debate, my point is that ordinary Thai folk shouldnt(necessarily) feel a particularly special bond with USA or any western country simply because their citizens flock here in their droves. [quote:2tni33wp]That's exactly what I was referring to. America rejected European elitism, autocratic rule, imperialism, etc from its beginning. For example: 40 million Germans, 15 million Asians, 45 million Africans, 30 million Irish, etc, etc all leaving those countries because of economic, religious, racial prejudices, and endless wars.[/quote:2tni33wp] I think if you read the last 7 words from your quote that the worm has definitely turned. As stated, my personal opinion of ordinary Americans is quite high, however i believe these situations are large problems in USA at present. Economic strife is repeated ad nauseum from every news source. Relgious prejudice examples can be gleaned from almost every facet of American life e.g. Iraq/Afghanistan, Fundamental Christians teaching such ghastly things as creationism not to mention people turning their back on Roman Catholcism due to countless sex scandals. Racial Prejudice is, i think, something i needn't bother highlighting any examples of. Endless wars is perhaps a bit unfair but USA is starting ot rack them up too! [quote:2tni33wp]Again, read some history. Vietnam, Laos - if America hadn't been here, Thailand wouldn't have a Monarchy today, it too would be communist. Consider Thai history from 1970-1980 with communists. Remember the 1978 surrender of Thai communists. Also, America wasn't fighting Vietnam, it was fighting the Soviet Union's spread of communism and their mandate to end capitalism and democracy (something that has helped Thailand prosper since the end of WWII). Well, we won that war in 1990 and since then even China has turned capitalists - now look at their success. Oh, and by the way, we didn't start the cold-war. And, it wasn't America, it was France, that ruthlessly occupied Laos, Vietnam, and Cambodia and stole land from Thailand for 100+ years. [/quote:2tni33wp] I would tend to consider your comments in line with the brain washed anti-communist rhetoric of Senator McCarthy and others, again i dont intend that as a personal attack, more the left over feeling of a lot Americans who were raised in a time of constant propaganda. I think if you read some more S.E. Asian history you shall discover that Ho Chi Minh himself came to The United States and the UN in order gain support for a democratic Vietnam, a chance that unfortunately due to France's standing was never grasped. What did happen was that Vietnam defeated an ex-colonial, weak, overstretched France to gain a semblence of freedom until America meddled in affairs(in the name of stoping the reds of course) with puppet governments that infuriated even the south Vietnamese to the point of rebellion. And this was all before the Viet-US war which ended in anything but victory for USA. Slightly getting off topic here but what im trying to say is that USA aren't or weren't the incorruptible and morally perfect saviours of which you describe. Capitalism is of course better than communism however it doesnt grant a country carte blanche to behave as they see fit and then to expect thanks and praise without criticism. [quote:2tni33wp]No you don't, because if you had a t-shirt like that about the monarchy, you'd go to prison, so dah! Last points: America has been a strategic partner that has helped keep Thailand independent for a long time. Even after WWII when your country sided with Nazis, Fascists, and Imperialistic Japan, the French and English wanted to put Thailand under their rule, it was America that kept Thailand free from their colonialist tendencies. America is also Thailand largest export market and 2nd largest investor after Japan in bringing new, high paying jobs to Thailand like the ones my company brought here that pay salaries between B45,000-95,000/month versus the B5,000/mo that's Thailand minimum wage salary (and they work 40 hrs/wk for that, not 60 hrs/wk)[/quote:2tni33wp] I did edit the my last post to say that im European, Irish in fact. I was simply referring to your question asking would i be offended to see my countrys flag on the teeshirt. And while i of course agree that USA have in many ways been a force for the greater good in a lot of areas in the world the underlying point of my previous post is that this can't come at whatever price the USA demands and if somebody decides to criticise America or any western state, no matter how trivial, perhaps instead of letting it get to us we may remember that we're all as imperfect as each other.

trojan commented : The tips on bringing up my kid were not necessary or comments like corruption doesn't effect your children quite obvious. Although you could argue that the money i flitter away to officials in business and immigration could be contributing to my kids International school bill. Actually where I live there is not an International School, and for the record I don't live in Isaan. What I was more interested in is whether people have left Thailand or were considering it because of the lack of freedom of speech and corruption. And I agree it might be better than Laos or Cambodia or wherever but that's not where we live. For instance I would be reluctant to visit China because of their appalling human rights record and by staying here I start feeling like I'm giving my blessing to corruption and imprisonments that I find very disturbing. Maybe I already got my answer, most people don't care as long as they are ok then why worry about anyone else. If I needed some advice on how to raise my kids this would be the last place I would be looking.

stilljustbrowsing commented : [quote="trojan":3nib08su]The tips on bringing up my kid were not necessary or comments like corruption doesn't effect your children quite obvious. Although you could argue that the money i flitter away to officials in business and immigration could be contributing to my kids International school bill. Actually where I live there is not an International School, and for the record I don't live in Isaan. What I was more interested in is whether people have left Thailand or were considering it because of the lack of freedom of speech and corruption. And I agree it might be better than Laos or Cambodia or wherever but that's not where we live. For instance I would be reluctant to visit China because of their appalling human rights record and by staying here I start feeling like I'm giving my blessing to corruption and imprisonments that I find very disturbing. Maybe I already got my answer, most people don't care as long as they are ok then why worry about anyone else. If I needed some advice on how to raise my kids this would be the last place I would be looking.[/quote:3nib08su] Trojan, I personally was trying to give advise based on my 7 years continueous living here in sunny Thailand. I would suspect others were/are trying to do the same. You mentioned your child and I latched onto that aspect of your post because I assumed you can take care of yourself, having moved here in the first place. Freedom of speech has always been a relative term, better you look to responsible speech. In England, human rights currently favours the criminal.