gohmer commented : I knew when I posted this I would get some heat. No problem, I'm used to it. Everyone had very good counter points and I appreciate it. I will only comment on Khun Na Fianna's comments: [quote:oltbaoav]America can act like a playboy in Thailand and do (pretty much) what they like[/quote:oltbaoav] I'm married and came here to work for an American Company courted by the Thai BOI and far from a Playboy. Also, those that do come here, and there's 2,500,000 Europeans/yr that come here too, to be playboys couldn't do so if Thailand wasn't world renown for offering that type of tourism. [quote:oltbaoav]Pick up your closest 'American History' book. Go to the end. Flick back 5 chapters. This is the point where our histories diverge. Edit to say: I'm European[/quote:oltbaoav] That's exactly what I was referring to. America rejected European elitism, autocratic rule, imperialism, etc from its beginning. For example: 40 million Germans, 15 million Asians, 45 million Africans, 30 million Irish, etc, etc all leaving those countries because of economic, religious, racial prejudices, and endless wars. [quote:oltbaoav]Don't forget Thailands neighbours too!!![/quote:oltbaoav] Again, read some history. Vietnam, Laos - if America hadn't been here, Thailand wouldn't have a Monarchy today, it too would be communist. Consider Thai history from 1970-1980 with communists. Remember the 1978 surrender of Thai communists. Also, America wasn't fighting Vietnam, it was fighting the Soviet Union's spread of communism and their mandate to end capitalism and democracy (something that has helped Thailand prosper since the end of WWII). Well, we won that war in 1990 and since then even China has turned capitalists - now look at their success. Oh, and by the way, we didn't start the cold-war. And, it wasn't America, it was France, that ruthlessly occupied Laos, Vietnam, and Cambodia and stole land from Thailand for 100+ years. [quote:oltbaoav]we dont get up in arms over a T-Shirt[/quote:oltbaoav] No you don't, because if you had a t-shirt like that about the monarchy, you'd go to prison, so dah! Last points: America has been a strategic partner that has helped keep Thailand independent for a long time. Even after WWII when your country sided with Nazis, Fascists, and Imperialistic Japan, the French and English wanted to put Thailand under their rule, it was America that kept Thailand free from their colonialist tendencies. America is also Thailand largest export market and 2nd largest investor after Japan in bringing new, high paying jobs to Thailand like the ones my company brought here that pay salaries between B45,000-95,000/month versus the B5,000/mo that's Thailand minimum wage salary (and they work 40 hrs/wk for that, not 60 hrs/wk)

Na Fianna commented : To Gohmer: [quote:2tni33wp]I'm married and came here to work for an American Company courted by the Thai BOI and far from a Playboy. Also, those that do come here, and there's 2,500,000 Europeans/yr that come here too, to be playboys couldn't do so if Thailand wasn't world renown for offering that type of tourism.[/quote:2tni33wp] Sir I was certainly not referring to your good self with my comment. Although what you state is true it's hardly a situation for ordinary Thai people to be thankful for. Regarding which came first, that will only lead to a pointless debate, my point is that ordinary Thai folk shouldnt(necessarily) feel a particularly special bond with USA or any western country simply because their citizens flock here in their droves. [quote:2tni33wp]That's exactly what I was referring to. America rejected European elitism, autocratic rule, imperialism, etc from its beginning. For example: 40 million Germans, 15 million Asians, 45 million Africans, 30 million Irish, etc, etc all leaving those countries because of economic, religious, racial prejudices, and endless wars.[/quote:2tni33wp] I think if you read the last 7 words from your quote that the worm has definitely turned. As stated, my personal opinion of ordinary Americans is quite high, however i believe these situations are large problems in USA at present. Economic strife is repeated ad nauseum from every news source. Relgious prejudice examples can be gleaned from almost every facet of American life e.g. Iraq/Afghanistan, Fundamental Christians teaching such ghastly things as creationism not to mention people turning their back on Roman Catholcism due to countless sex scandals. Racial Prejudice is, i think, something i needn't bother highlighting any examples of. Endless wars is perhaps a bit unfair but USA is starting ot rack them up too! [quote:2tni33wp]Again, read some history. Vietnam, Laos - if America hadn't been here, Thailand wouldn't have a Monarchy today, it too would be communist. Consider Thai history from 1970-1980 with communists. Remember the 1978 surrender of Thai communists. Also, America wasn't fighting Vietnam, it was fighting the Soviet Union's spread of communism and their mandate to end capitalism and democracy (something that has helped Thailand prosper since the end of WWII). Well, we won that war in 1990 and since then even China has turned capitalists - now look at their success. Oh, and by the way, we didn't start the cold-war. And, it wasn't America, it was France, that ruthlessly occupied Laos, Vietnam, and Cambodia and stole land from Thailand for 100+ years. [/quote:2tni33wp] I would tend to consider your comments in line with the brain washed anti-communist rhetoric of Senator McCarthy and others, again i dont intend that as a personal attack, more the left over feeling of a lot Americans who were raised in a time of constant propaganda. I think if you read some more S.E. Asian history you shall discover that Ho Chi Minh himself came to The United States and the UN in order gain support for a democratic Vietnam, a chance that unfortunately due to France's standing was never grasped. What did happen was that Vietnam defeated an ex-colonial, weak, overstretched France to gain a semblence of freedom until America meddled in affairs(in the name of stoping the reds of course) with puppet governments that infuriated even the south Vietnamese to the point of rebellion. And this was all before the Viet-US war which ended in anything but victory for USA. Slightly getting off topic here but what im trying to say is that USA aren't or weren't the incorruptible and morally perfect saviours of which you describe. Capitalism is of course better than communism however it doesnt grant a country carte blanche to behave as they see fit and then to expect thanks and praise without criticism. [quote:2tni33wp]No you don't, because if you had a t-shirt like that about the monarchy, you'd go to prison, so dah! Last points: America has been a strategic partner that has helped keep Thailand independent for a long time. Even after WWII when your country sided with Nazis, Fascists, and Imperialistic Japan, the French and English wanted to put Thailand under their rule, it was America that kept Thailand free from their colonialist tendencies. America is also Thailand largest export market and 2nd largest investor after Japan in bringing new, high paying jobs to Thailand like the ones my company brought here that pay salaries between B45,000-95,000/month versus the B5,000/mo that's Thailand minimum wage salary (and they work 40 hrs/wk for that, not 60 hrs/wk)[/quote:2tni33wp] I did edit the my last post to say that im European, Irish in fact. I was simply referring to your question asking would i be offended to see my countrys flag on the teeshirt. And while i of course agree that USA have in many ways been a force for the greater good in a lot of areas in the world the underlying point of my previous post is that this can't come at whatever price the USA demands and if somebody decides to criticise America or any western state, no matter how trivial, perhaps instead of letting it get to us we may remember that we're all as imperfect as each other.

evan10 commented : Gohmer, there are many people in the US who are pretty chauvinistic and will insult other countries. I think that in every country there are chauvinists who think their country is the best. Just think about how many times you've heard people in the US denigrate France or Canada for no reason. Or think about how people talk about the Muslim countries. We changed the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries for a few years after 9/11. How stupid was that? This T-shirt is probably harmless. There are a lot of other causes in Thailand that are more worthy of your time. Yes, maybe that t-shirt is a little offensive, but there are legitimate reasons for people in SE Asia to hate the US. The US dropped more bombs on Laos during the Vietnam War than all countries dropped on each other in World War II combined. We flew 580,344 bombing missions over the country. Thirty percent of these munitions didn't explode, and are still laying around the country. Every year, people are wounded, maimed or killed because of these bombs. Here's a link about it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8089366.stm. We also killed perhaps over a million people in Cambodia as well. While trying to counter the communist insurgency in Cambodia, the US destroyed the rural areas of the country, driving millions of people from the countryside to the cities. The population of Phnom Penh increased from 375,000 to roughly 2 million. This caused widespread famine and death. By the CIA's own estimates, 600,000 Cambodians died from US and South Vietnamese invasions from 1970-75. When the US left Cambodia in 1975, we estimated that another million Cambodians would die as a result of famine. Here are some links about the US involvement in Cambodia during and after the Vietnam War: http://www.understandingpower.com/Chapter3.htm#f60 http://www.onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1900s ... ia1970.htm Even though you don't learn much about this in high school and college, the US is an imperial power. We didn't fight wars all over the place to fight Communism. We have fought 3 large wars since the fall of Communism 20 years ago, so if anything, we have become more aggressive. We fight wars to benefit big business, and use the threat of Communism or Terrorism to whip Americans into enough of a frenzy to approve of international violence.

Asianexpat commented : [quote="philhal2":2bop54r1]Very little knowledge displayed here . Simple internet search shows requirements for Thai citizenship , 5 years continuous residency , able to speak Thai and have sufficient funds or suitable employment .100 people from each nation are able to apply annually .I guess unless you can have dual citizenship most " FARANGS "would not forgo the benefits of their own homeland , pensions ,embassies etc !!!!! [quote="overhaul38":2bop54r1][quote="Ian":2bop54r1]I've never been completely sure about why exactly this "special" treatment exists. I''ve never found it in Indonesia - for example - where I used to travel a lot. Nor in Malaysia. Nor Singapore. Nor in Cambodia, Laos. I can only compare it to Japanese racism - but Thais have always seemed far less rampantly racist that what one finds in Japan.[/quote:2bop54r1] It is only a matter of a minor degree. The prime similarities are: 1. Denial of citizenship. To my knowledge no farang has ever been granted Thai citizenship. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. 2. Denial of land ownership. 3. Special pricing at some facilities/markets. 4. Personal reporting requirement every 90 days. I don't know Japan's.[/quote:2bop54r1][/quote:2bop54r1] In Taiwan one can not get a local passport without giving up their own local passport and I believe that is the same in Thailand. Odd how the US allows them to keep their own passport while giving them a US passport while the Thais and Taiwanese will not give them a local passport unless they give up their own. Biased or Hypocrisy?