Domestic / cross cultural issues - Thai / Foreigner concerns

America bashing at Esplanade Mall

By gohmer, Created on: 09/05/2010, Last updated on: 11/06/2011

» I putting this post up because it is related to international relationships with American citizens living and visiting Thailand. It illustrated to me that little is known about America by most people in Thailand, in fact, I think that few in the world truly understand what America is about and how...

• gohmer commented : [quote="Hard_done_by":3mn3j5ld][quote="Na Fianna":3mn3j5ld] ... I would tend to consider your comments in line with the brain washed anti-communist rhetoric of Senator McCarthy and others, again i dont intend that as a personal attack, more the left over feeling of a lot Americans who were raised in a time of constant propaganda. I think if you read some more S.E. Asian history you shall discover that Ho Chi Minh himself came to The United States and the UN in order gain support for a democratic Vietnam, a chance that unfortunately due to France's standing was never grasped. What did happen was that Vietnam defeated an ex-colonial, weak, overstretched France to gain a semblence of freedom until America meddled in affairs(in the name of stoping the reds of course) with puppet governments that infuriated even the south Vietnamese to the point of rebellion. ...[/quote:3mn3j5ld] Well posted.[/quote:3mn3j5ld] This is another example of how Europeans view Americans, which is just as ignorant as you all claiming we are ignorant about the rest of the world. First, the vast, vast majority of Americans today believe McCarthy was an outright idiot. You'd have to dig hard with someone over 65 to find a believer there, and there's a crap load of documentaries shown on American TV daily about that era and how wrong crazy he was. Second, I too am Irish (1 of the 30 million that choose America over the 5 million that chose to stay in Ireland). Third, I actually believe that communism is a quantum leap forward for countries like China and Vietnam compared to the brutal colonialism of the French or the greedy, power hoarding land-owners of China during the various dynasties. I will tell you also that I think, despite his completely idiotic policies that led to millions dying, Mao is a hero of China. He ended forced marriages and brought love to China for the first time in its history, an unintended consequence of shipping millions of youth off to co-ed work camps. Forth, regardless of past brain-washing, it is historical fact that the Soviet Union took over eastern Europe, lied to the allies and had its own agenda for extending its power. If you read Harford MacKinder's essay on Geographical Politics (1904) - [url:3mn3j5ld]http://www.mindef.gov.sg/safti/pointer/back/journals/1998/Vol24_3/8.htm[/url:3mn3j5ld], which is credited for being one of the most influential theories of world dominance, and what guided Hitler's military agenda, and later Stalin's, you will see that McCarthy actually had good cause for worrying about communism. Fifth, there are small countries around the world that America is credited for having a bad reputation due to intervention, Chile, El Salvador, Iran, etc; however, all of these are unfortunate collateral damage due to the bigger picture of the conflict with Stalin and other Soviet leaders. For those affected in these countries, America will always be view as the bad guy, but bottom line is that every western country was dependent on the US for stopping them (Soviets). And, I would argue that had the Soviets not been a world threat for 50 years, there would have been drastically different agendas in Asia. Consider the fact that the Marshal Plan completely rebuilt Japan - and Germany - after WWII. That was to bring peace and stability. Fighting the Soviets was the end game, and thank god we won.

• Na Fianna commented : Ok Gohmer, Just a couple of things this time, this thread is supposed to be about your horror and disgust at a T-shirt on which the stars and stripes are insulted. [quote:tvr0fnb6]You'd have to dig hard with someone over 65 to find a believer there, and there's a crap load of documentaries shown on American TV daily about that era and how wrong crazy he was.[/quote:tvr0fnb6] Absolutely correct. However the ideals of this man and many many more like him shaped US foreign policy for some time and in at least one instance still does(Cuba). To put this in the same context of your (remarkably Bush-like) collateral damage statement, expect blowback! [quote:tvr0fnb6]Second, I too am Irish (1 of the 30 million that choose America over the 5 million that chose to stay in Ireland). [/quote:tvr0fnb6] Is that supposed to be disaparaging remark regarding Ireland? I think the choice made was mainly between the potato and the not-potato and then work and no work. [quote:tvr0fnb6]McCarthy actually had good cause for worrying about communism[/quote:tvr0fnb6] Of course he did, perhaps even rightly so. It did not excuse his and his country's paranoid, undemocratic internal and external behaviour however. If you're ever talking to Vietnamese people ask them who they would rather run their country, China? Soviet Union? France? USA? each and everyone will tell you that they will only ever be Vietnamese! I think you regard the American way of life as something everyone on earth, either overtly or secretly, aspires to. If people had paid attention to this many moons ago countless innocent lives could have been saved, however America's paranoia regarding Communism led to it invading a land literally on the other side of the world and getting a very bloody nose doing so. [quote:tvr0fnb6]Mao is a hero of China. He ended forced marriages and brought love to China for the first time in its history, an unintended consequence of shipping millions of youth off to co-ed work camps.[/quote:tvr0fnb6] He ended a lot more than forced marriage, however here is another example of what good, staunchly enforced propaganda can do! [quote:tvr0fnb6]Fifth, there are small countries around the world that America is credited for having a bad reputation due to intervention, Chile, El Salvador, Iran, etc; however, all of these are unfortunate collateral damage due to the bigger picture of the conflict with Stalin and other Soviet leaders.[/quote:tvr0fnb6] Well it seems in this case you're part of the collateral damage in that America's 'bad reputation' has led to a (slightly) offensive T-Shirt being printed and ended up offending an American. [quote:tvr0fnb6]And, I would argue that had the Soviets not been a world threat for 50 years, there would have been drastically different agendas in Asia. [/quote:tvr0fnb6] I think it Ironic that Russian history can use this exact phrase, with justification, substituting 'Soviets' for 'Americans'. Anyway, as you've admitted in your post America has a bad reputation(regardless of whether you agree with the reasons why) in a lot of places around the world. So why whine when you see something as ridiculous as an American flag being slightly insulted?

• evan10 commented : Gohmer, there are many people in the US who are pretty chauvinistic and will insult other countries. I think that in every country there are chauvinists who think their country is the best. Just think about how many times you've heard people in the US denigrate France or Canada for no reason. Or think about how people talk about the Muslim countries. We changed the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries for a few years after 9/11. How stupid was that? This T-shirt is probably harmless. There are a lot of other causes in Thailand that are more worthy of your time. Yes, maybe that t-shirt is a little offensive, but there are legitimate reasons for people in SE Asia to hate the US. The US dropped more bombs on Laos during the Vietnam War than all countries dropped on each other in World War II combined. We flew 580,344 bombing missions over the country. Thirty percent of these munitions didn't explode, and are still laying around the country. Every year, people are wounded, maimed or killed because of these bombs. Here's a link about it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8089366.stm. We also killed perhaps over a million people in Cambodia as well. While trying to counter the communist insurgency in Cambodia, the US destroyed the rural areas of the country, driving millions of people from the countryside to the cities. The population of Phnom Penh increased from 375,000 to roughly 2 million. This caused widespread famine and death. By the CIA's own estimates, 600,000 Cambodians died from US and South Vietnamese invasions from 1970-75. When the US left Cambodia in 1975, we estimated that another million Cambodians would die as a result of famine. Here are some links about the US involvement in Cambodia during and after the Vietnam War: http://www.understandingpower.com/Chapter3.htm#f60 http://www.onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1900s ... ia1970.htm Even though you don't learn much about this in high school and college, the US is an imperial power. We didn't fight wars all over the place to fight Communism. We have fought 3 large wars since the fall of Communism 20 years ago, so if anything, we have become more aggressive. We fight wars to benefit big business, and use the threat of Communism or Terrorism to whip Americans into enough of a frenzy to approve of international violence.

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