sulasno commented : is 10 years a bit harsh for an accident ? hmmmm ..............................

pachangamac042 commented : Well Terry, the article says that he has been sentenced, but it does not really say that he has been put in jail, does it? I am sure they have appealed already and he is still driving his Merc through the srteets of Bangkok.

stilljustbrowsing commented : I recall reading that one of the previous K.n.g.s Said that it was not legally binding to kneel before one any more (No.5 I think) When was that law reintroduced? I got the impression it was now just a courtessey and show of respect rather than a legal requirement?

SARDINES commented : [quote="stilljustbrowsing":34857uf4]I recall reading that one of the previous K.n.g.s Said that it was not legally binding to kneel before one any more (No.5 I think) When was that law reintroduced? I got the impression it was now just a courtessey and show of respect rather than a legal requirement?[/quote:34857uf4] I believe I read somewhere during the 1950's when General Sarit ousted General Pibul. As for the reasons, you'll have to dig up yourself for what you feel the motives are. ...We live in paranoid times, my friend SARDINES

stilljustbrowsing commented : No, it was not one of the lesser beings, it was pre 1932! (post 32, and particularly post 46, old habbits were reintroduced.) I will look further and try to be more specific if I can do so without being "removed" Sorry missunderstanding perhaps, are you refering to the re-introduction of the requirement?

Sean Moran commented : [quote="klauskent":1449ci80]Sean, Great story.Pictures and all. Both u and fast eddy write beautifully. Also, good topic on altruism brought up by fast eddy. I would have to guess that the fruit vendor in front of E shrine probably knew less of why that shrine was built and the significance of it than some of us expats. In any case the burden of proof lies within us to establish real boundaries and adhere to them. So I guess we are moving the topic of this thread to altruism in Thai society. but again we can't really expect too much from a fruit vendor...can we. but fast eddy's point was well made and duly noted. k[/quote:1449ci80] I hope that it didn't come across as too ghey, what I wrote yesterday. It's fairly much the way things were regarding my good luck on first arriving in Thailand, and how the rural location probably helped me to meet decent people who treated me as a foreigner but in a friendly sort of way, without (mostly) thinking of trying to scam me. I was known as Mr Kangaloo, which did seem to come across as a term of endearment. I felt accepted. Not the way things tend to go in the big cities where there are millions of people cramped into little boxes who don't even know their next-door neighbours. There is a direct connection between the KMS and the young lady who was murdered that I wrote about in the Future of Issan thread and Anuchit's sister's restaurant - the two were almost across the road from each other, and the death of that girl still haunts me. I suppose that I get superstitious about respecting those who have helped me to avoid such tragic outcomes as what happened to her. I suppose there is a kind of platonic love for both she and my living friends, but looking back over the post, it comes across as a bit ghey to the reader. Sorry. It wasn't meant that way, but more about sincerity. Still, as you mention, I've taken off on a tangent to the thread topic that you have just written on, and only meant to broach the subject of altruism as a side issue, but perhaps there is more to add to that component of Face? We've focussed on responsibility (avoidance of) for quite a lot of the thread so far, until you posted the wise words about the precepts of Thai culture and how justice is served civilly, rather than with mad-dog assertiveness. Perhaps there is a subtle stick in that side, and the merit-making altruistic tendency might be what peels the carrot? Excuse me while I take some time to read back over the recent posts since you first wrote and think of how these might all combine into the same, for I reckon you've already outlined this in your first post. I'll try to clarify this later today. ---o0o--- Well, it's approaching 8am in Thailand. I'm having a think on the association of merit-making with altruism, as the former might be viewed by some as a somwhat 'selfish' means of furthering one's good karma in this or the next life from what little I understand of it, while the latter I consider as purely that of true selfless acts of kindness to others, exclusive of kin altruism. It's a very fine line, and probably best not to differentiate over such minor intercultural semantics. I reckon it works the same in the process of saving face for someone else in the event of minor issues. Still a lot more thinking to get through yet on how the idea of Face might be realted to merit-making, altruism, and the selfishness of one's belief in Karma. [quote:1449ci80]Respecting culture is great but, If you find yourself paying 10 times what something is worth then not only have you done yourself a great disservice but you are disabling the social and economic leveling mechanisms inherent within the culture. This can have the short term consequence of (what Karl Marx refers to as) [b:1449ci80]mystifying the indigenous[/b:1449ci80]. This process of mystification can easily be misconstrued and evaluated by Thais as either, 1) the reward for merit philosophy or 2) The Patron client relationship described by Mabbet.[/quote:1449ci80] It seems that by your mention of Marx's [i:1449ci80]mystifying the indigenous[/i:1449ci80] you have jagged the very first incident on that night on May 2nd, 2005 that basically saw the beginning of my friendship with Anuchit. Rather a coincidence, but you've put a name to the episode that I don't remember reading in the few chapters I've read on wool and coats and labour etc. Even to the point of estimating the multiplier of ten times, you guessed it, and seeing it's early in the morning and this is just one post in the thread, I hope I might be allowed to elaborate on what happened when I paid for my first meal in Thailand with a 1,000 baht note under the mistaken belief that it was a 100 baht note. The corner had folded over to cover the trailing zero and I didn't recognise the different markings. So, I'd arrived in Thailand the previous afternoon and been picked up at the airport by my friend and in some ways, 'sponsor', and driven from Don Muang to Rayong for the first night. Chalore and her husband took me to dinner in Ban Phe on the first night and let me stay in her brother's villa as he was away in Bangkok at the time. The next morning, my first ever in Thailand, she drove me up to Nikhom Pattana to show me around the markets, took me to breakfast, to the news-stand where she bought me the Bangkok Post and the Student Weekly. "This is what I tell the student to read." she said. We then found the apartment block in Mabkha where I was to spend the next few months, and she did the talking for me to help me move in at the monthly rate, which she paid for me herself incidently for that first month. I was then left to settle into the new room, (to put it mildly). I hadn't yet spent a single baht on anything. My wallet was full of new currency but I hadn't had time to sit down and work out what the different denominations looked like in a hurry. I'd learned that day from Chalore while we were up at the Pluak Daeng Dam sightseeing how to say [i:1449ci80]thank you[/i:1449ci80] in pasa Thai and apart from [i:1449ci80]hello[/i:1449ci80] that was all the language I spoke. I did take a walk up the road to the mini-mart to buy a mop and a broom and some detergent and stuff like that. I had the crazy idea that if I polished the floors, the rat-nest fragrance in the room might dissipate. So dinner time came. The buses stop running at around 18:00 in Mabkha. No taxis. Where the dickens am I gonna get some tucker on foot? Potato chips from the mini mart perhaps? It turned out that there were plenty of raan ahaans right near the apartments, and Mrs Pueng had the kitchen running for dining in the restaurant at the apartments or else room service if required. I wasn't aware of these options back then. I walked by a few eateries thinking that they were private homes until I'd ventured about half a mile up the road. That's when I came across the Silver Star, (the restaurant in the photo above). Anuchit and his 'sister' (chef and boss), really rolled out the red carpet for the wayward farang that night. I couldn't even remember how to say [i:1449ci80]khao phad[/i:1449ci80], but he spoke just enough English to make me feel that I was in the right place for a feed, and there I was at the special table with DEEP-FRIED CHICKEN! Heaps and heaps of fried chicken with some kind of chilly sauce and some other foods I can't remember after so long. Wow! What gives? I sensed this "special treatment" as something I wasn't really keen on, but we all played along with it for the night. I drank too much bia Chang from having so much fun. When it came time for the check-bin, I wasn't sure what to do, but I was the only customer in the restaurant that night, apart from a few blokes that I later got to meet - mates of Anuchit just dropped by to watch television. The total came to 115 baht, but I had to offer a tip, of course. It was such a rare treat to get the movie-star service so unexpectedly. So that's when I determined that 150 baht would pay for the meal and the beer, and include a reasonable tip without "mystifying the indigenous". So I paid the two banknotes, said thanks in my new language that I'd just learned that morning, and headed home, stopping on the way at the minimart for some supplies to go with the HBO and the next morning. It was only then when I went to pay for the ciggies and iced tea that I realised that I'd accidentally used the only 1,000 baht note I had to pay the check-bin, and I didn't have enough cash to cover the minimart bill. So I was rather confused. I still didn't know the words for "sorry" but I tried to look surprised and by gesture explain to the shop attendant that I had made a monetary mistake. If it wasn't for the embarrassment, it was probably quite an hilarious event. I went back up the road to the Silver Star where they were closing up. I should mention that these mates of Anuchit's were BIG blokes. I wasn't all that keen on the idea of getting assertive about MY mistake. I was actually a little wary of having even walked back in, not having any idea of how people in Thailand react to situations like this. Anuchit saw me walk in and knew innediately why I'd come back. The other three just sat there staring at me trying not to burst out laughing. No problem. 900 baht in 100s handed straight back to me. Some months later, Anuchit did mention that at the time, he thought I was offering a very big tip for the good service, although considering the additional 50 baht note on top of the 1,000, I reckon he was just trying to politely explain how a farang and his money soon go separate ways, and more fool me if I'd walked off and not realised my own stupidity. That old saying, don't look a gift horse in the mouth probably applies fairly well. If someone had paid me 10 times what I asked and then walked off, I can't be sure whether I'd run after them to tell them, although with shops and places and people I know, I try to make a point of returning any overpayment of change in a transaction. It happens once or twice over a year. What I see as having begun the friendship back on that night, was the honest way he went about sorting things out with no denial or any kind of attempt to dissuade me from asking for the change for the accidental 1,000 baht note that had the corner folded over so the numbers read 1,00 and I didn't know any better. These were big blokes. If he'd just told me to get out and go home, I know that that is exactly what I would have done. One might say I was still mystified by the indigenous back then. I hope that this long-winded saga isn't getting too off-topic. I rekcon it relates to the thread reasonably well, but I'll refrain from adding anymore photos if that's okay. I have plenty but I don't think anyone really needs to see them.

klauskent commented : Sean, You write well enough to publish a book. I hope u are saving the stuff you write on this forum. To you its perhaps sort of a stream of consciousness thing but it is interesting enough to hold the reader's attention. With a bit of character development and some sort of a plot-line it could be much better than the other novels about Thailand. k

fast eddy commented : Klauskent, thanks for the compliment - I do like to put it down on paper/post it on the internet. Sean, mate, you have found a very good friend and I too have benefitted from being on the inside of relationships out here. I do wonder if your mistake would have been rectified it it happened in the big mango. fortunately, as I mentioned, there are still parts of Thailand who view westerners with favour and are happy to help us struggle along.Hope you manage to get back into contact as it is a shame to loose a truly good friend like that! I well remember a story told to me by a friend when we were living in Tokyo. He had had a night out on the tiles and had stumbled his way to a street stall selling ramen. Being much the worse for wear,he sank to a chair and downed a dish of the tasty pick-me-up. Having paid, his thoughts turned to his warm futon which was whispering in his ear 'sleep, sleeeep, sleeeeeeeeppp'. He staggered on home, though by now he was a little wary, for gathered on the corner was a gang of skinheads, tattooed-up, with big doc martin boots, red braces and stay-press jeans. Now, this was about 2 a.m. and he could barely walk - the last thing he needed was a run in with a fascist/rascist gang of Japanese skins! Making sure he didn't make any eye-contact, he made his way home hoping he'd slipped by undetected. However, not before too long he heard the pounding of boots on cement paving stones - a lot of them and they were getting closer. He tried not to panick and thought if he didn't turn around or start running maybe everything would work out o.k. By now the thump of boots were ringing in his ears as they caught up with him. He braced himself for the worst and just stopped walking as they surrounded him. This is it, he thought! The skins, gasping for breath, managed to get out the following in broken English 'Mr. Gaijun san,(Mr. foreigner) Mr. Gaijun san, you forgot your change!' The ramen stall owner had given them the money and sent them off to give it to him! How about that? Not sure about how it works into the thread on 'face' but it sure was an alutristic act by many people to someone they probably would never see again. I usually equate most things to my experiences travelling as that is all I have been doing for the last 30 years. Consequently, I only really understand extremes of relationships between people (nine years in the Royal Navy: living and breathing with guys who had become closer than family) or living across the other side of the world where I am very much on my own as an outsider. Therefore, my take may be different from that of others - still, this does allow me to observe from a distance. Probably, my favourite show of Thai alturism is based on travelling on buses. When I was living day by day earning a couple of hundred baht an hour teaching, I used to travel Bangkok by red and cream buses. Usually, the seats would already be taken and I would be standing. It was a really pleasant feeling when a Thai lady, sometimes young, sometimes still at school and in uniform, would take my bag from me and place it on her lap. She was sharing my load as she had a seat and I was standing! such kind and caring gestures really make the world go around!

bruce99218 commented : This is funny. Foreigners probably do have bigger heads. But in my case I have a LOT less hair. I don't think I've ever seen a balding Thai.

Mickyfin commented : Special price for foriegners,well if u can't see the scam you don't know too much about Thailand,personally I think your better off staying away from anything expat,when I return to stay in thung kru,I don't get any special prices for foreigners,most people are great.

Xavier Romero-Frias commented : [quote="Ian":1ehayqdf]I've never been completely sure about why exactly this "special" treatment exists. I''ve never found it in Indonesia - for example - where I used to travel a lot. Nor in Malaysia. Nor Singapore. Nor in Cambodia, Laos.[/quote:1ehayqdf] I don't believe what you say. Maybe you didn't stay long enough in those countries. In Sri lanka, Maldives, India, the situation is identical as with the Thai barbers, whether it is paying for the entrance at Colombo Zoo, paying a dentist bill in Male' or a taxi in India. It does not matter if you are a long-time resident or not. Steve, an American friend of mine, called it "skin tax". But I think it has less to do with racism as such than with assumptions, the main assumption being "Foreigners are affluent."

sfrents commented : While it is true that Bumrungrad and serveral other hospitals are excellent, the doctors make $$$ by prescribing medicine. They purposely over prescribe medicine that patients don't need. They make more off of the compensation they recieve from the medicine then from their salaries. Again, the care is great...we traveled to Thailand to have both of our children born there and I spent $1500 in the hospital for food poisioning.....don't eat from the streets in Bangkok. Heavy metals from cars and lack of water to wash hands, food, dishes, ect..... Got off track but just make sure that you really need what they are prescribing and don't be afraid to question them or tell them that you don't want a certain medicine

Sean Moran commented : [quote="sfrents":vfgnig7x]While it is true that Bumrungrad and serveral other hospitals are excellent, the doctors make $$$ by prescribing medicine. They purposely over prescribe medicine that patients don't need. They make more off of the compensation they recieve from the medicine then from their salaries. Again, the care is great...we traveled to Thailand to have both of our children born there and I spent $1500 in the hospital for food poisioning.....don't eat from the streets in Bangkok. Heavy metals from cars and lack of water to wash hands, food, dishes, ect..... Got off track but just make sure that you really need what they are prescribing and don't be afraid to question them or tell them that you don't want a certain medicine[/quote:vfgnig7x] That's very closely related to my recent medical dilemma, although it is Thailand's medical system that I see as my saviour and the system here that has almost killed me on several occasions over the past two years. In essence, when in need of a preventative treatment for asthma, I am able to access the cortico-steroid required from a 'drug-store' in Thailand in pill form so as to regulate the dosage accurately to the nearest few milligrams. It is possibly an important consideration to gain some familiarity with the pharmacists and maintain good manners when purchasing relievers in the form of salbutamol (Ventolin) spray to begin with, for I have been turned down by one or two chemists having walked in off the street in urban Bangkok, but those are rare as long as one is aware of the pros and cons of self-medication and those behind the counter are aware that it is a matter of life and death and that the customer knows what they're doing. Back here where I was born into citizenship, the trouble I have had accessing prednisolone has caused me to stop trying. The same medications are marketed as a sprays in various kinds of aerosol canisters, and so the superfluous plastic and aluminium that increase the production cost of the goods slightly, but probably raise the price by quite a margin for what little medicine is packaged in the pretty boxes with no medicinal benefit at all. I was told that the dosage of a single spray is roughly around the same as 0.25mg of prednisolone, although the cost of a reliever with 60 puffs is far more than 15mg in tablet form. Mythology about hunchbacks and bone/skin deformities maybe believed by the GPs who continually refuse to prescribe the right medication in favour of the latest craze from Glaxo-Welcom or whichever drug dealer is in-vogue right now, but no matter how I try to explain the very facts of the benefits I have gained in the past in Australia, as well as recently over two six-month stints in Thailand, the only way that I have managed to access the pred' I'm currently on @ 12.5mg/d is to be locked away in an ICU ward for a week until I can beg and plead for another script. Whenever that happens, they continue to overdose the prescriotion with far more than required, which might relate to how these mythical hunchbacks are found. They have no idea either way. In support of the GPs who have contributed to my near death experiences recently, I can only say that if they were deliberately trying to foist the products of the drug dealers on me, then they'd be getting paid far more. I can only hope that they are simply misguided because of various scare-mongering research that is promoted by the drug dealers. Surely they don't put money before human lives deliberately?