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    About Face.

    By Sean Moran, Created on: 14/10/2008, Last updated on: 13/04/2014

    » One olde axiom that comes to mind is, '[i:3b539sim]If you can't say something nice, then keep your mouth s.h.u.t.[/i:3b539sim]' Just a thread that pertains to one of the cultural differences one might notice in venturing from a typical 'westernised' society of the assertive kind to the shores of...

    • Sean Moran commented : [quote="klauskent":1449ci80]Sean, Great story.Pictures and all. Both u and fast eddy write beautifully. Also, good topic on altruism brought up by fast eddy. I would have to guess that the fruit vendor in front of E shrine probably knew less of why that shrine was built and the significance of it than some of us expats. In any case the burden of proof lies within us to establish real boundaries and adhere to them. So I guess we are moving the topic of this thread to altruism in Thai society. but again we can't really expect too much from a fruit vendor...can we. but fast eddy's point was well made and duly noted. k[/quote:1449ci80] I hope that it didn't come across as too ghey, what I wrote yesterday. It's fairly much the way things were regarding my good luck on first arriving in Thailand, and how the rural location probably helped me to meet decent people who treated me as a foreigner but in a friendly sort of way, without (mostly) thinking of trying to scam me. I was known as Mr Kangaloo, which did seem to come across as a term of endearment. I felt accepted. Not the way things tend to go in the big cities where there are millions of people cramped into little boxes who don't even know their next-door neighbours. There is a direct connection between the KMS and the young lady who was murdered that I wrote about in the Future of Issan thread and Anuchit's sister's restaurant - the two were almost across the road from each other, and the death of that girl still haunts me. I suppose that I get superstitious about respecting those who have helped me to avoid such tragic outcomes as what happened to her. I suppose there is a kind of platonic love for both she and my living friends, but looking back over the post, it comes across as a bit ghey to the reader. Sorry. It wasn't meant that way, but more about sincerity. Still, as you mention, I've taken off on a tangent to the thread topic that you have just written on, and only meant to broach the subject of altruism as a side issue, but perhaps there is more to add to that component of Face? We've focussed on responsibility (avoidance of) for quite a lot of the thread so far, until you posted the wise words about the precepts of Thai culture and how justice is served civilly, rather than with mad-dog assertiveness. Perhaps there is a subtle stick in that side, and the merit-making altruistic tendency might be what peels the carrot? Excuse me while I take some time to read back over the recent posts since you first wrote and think of how these might all combine into the same, for I reckon you've already outlined this in your first post. I'll try to clarify this later today. ---o0o--- Well, it's approaching 8am in Thailand. I'm having a think on the association of merit-making with altruism, as the former might be viewed by some as a somwhat 'selfish' means of furthering one's good karma in this or the next life from what little I understand of it, while the latter I consider as purely that of true selfless acts of kindness to others, exclusive of kin altruism. It's a very fine line, and probably best not to differentiate over such minor intercultural semantics. I reckon it works the same in the process of saving face for someone else in the event of minor issues. Still a lot more thinking to get through yet on how the idea of Face might be realted to merit-making, altruism, and the selfishness of one's belief in Karma. [quote:1449ci80]Respecting culture is great but, If you find yourself paying 10 times what something is worth then not only have you done yourself a great disservice but you are disabling the social and economic leveling mechanisms inherent within the culture. This can have the short term consequence of (what Karl Marx refers to as) [b:1449ci80]mystifying the indigenous[/b:1449ci80]. This process of mystification can easily be misconstrued and evaluated by Thais as either, 1) the reward for merit philosophy or 2) The Patron client relationship described by Mabbet.[/quote:1449ci80] It seems that by your mention of Marx's [i:1449ci80]mystifying the indigenous[/i:1449ci80] you have jagged the very first incident on that night on May 2nd, 2005 that basically saw the beginning of my friendship with Anuchit. Rather a coincidence, but you've put a name to the episode that I don't remember reading in the few chapters I've read on wool and coats and labour etc. Even to the point of estimating the multiplier of ten times, you guessed it, and seeing it's early in the morning and this is just one post in the thread, I hope I might be allowed to elaborate on what happened when I paid for my first meal in Thailand with a 1,000 baht note under the mistaken belief that it was a 100 baht note. The corner had folded over to cover the trailing zero and I didn't recognise the different markings. So, I'd arrived in Thailand the previous afternoon and been picked up at the airport by my friend and in some ways, 'sponsor', and driven from Don Muang to Rayong for the first night. Chalore and her husband took me to dinner in Ban Phe on the first night and let me stay in her brother's villa as he was away in Bangkok at the time. The next morning, my first ever in Thailand, she drove me up to Nikhom Pattana to show me around the markets, took me to breakfast, to the news-stand where she bought me the Bangkok Post and the Student Weekly. "This is what I tell the student to read." she said. We then found the apartment block in Mabkha where I was to spend the next few months, and she did the talking for me to help me move in at the monthly rate, which she paid for me herself incidently for that first month. I was then left to settle into the new room, (to put it mildly). I hadn't yet spent a single baht on anything. My wallet was full of new currency but I hadn't had time to sit down and work out what the different denominations looked like in a hurry. I'd learned that day from Chalore while we were up at the Pluak Daeng Dam sightseeing how to say [i:1449ci80]thank you[/i:1449ci80] in pasa Thai and apart from [i:1449ci80]hello[/i:1449ci80] that was all the language I spoke. I did take a walk up the road to the mini-mart to buy a mop and a broom and some detergent and stuff like that. I had the crazy idea that if I polished the floors, the rat-nest fragrance in the room might dissipate. So dinner time came. The buses stop running at around 18:00 in Mabkha. No taxis. Where the dickens am I gonna get some tucker on foot? Potato chips from the mini mart perhaps? It turned out that there were plenty of raan ahaans right near the apartments, and Mrs Pueng had the kitchen running for dining in the restaurant at the apartments or else room service if required. I wasn't aware of these options back then. I walked by a few eateries thinking that they were private homes until I'd ventured about half a mile up the road. That's when I came across the Silver Star, (the restaurant in the photo above). Anuchit and his 'sister' (chef and boss), really rolled out the red carpet for the wayward farang that night. I couldn't even remember how to say [i:1449ci80]khao phad[/i:1449ci80], but he spoke just enough English to make me feel that I was in the right place for a feed, and there I was at the special table with DEEP-FRIED CHICKEN! Heaps and heaps of fried chicken with some kind of chilly sauce and some other foods I can't remember after so long. Wow! What gives? I sensed this "special treatment" as something I wasn't really keen on, but we all played along with it for the night. I drank too much bia Chang from having so much fun. When it came time for the check-bin, I wasn't sure what to do, but I was the only customer in the restaurant that night, apart from a few blokes that I later got to meet - mates of Anuchit just dropped by to watch television. The total came to 115 baht, but I had to offer a tip, of course. It was such a rare treat to get the movie-star service so unexpectedly. So that's when I determined that 150 baht would pay for the meal and the beer, and include a reasonable tip without "mystifying the indigenous". So I paid the two banknotes, said thanks in my new language that I'd just learned that morning, and headed home, stopping on the way at the minimart for some supplies to go with the HBO and the next morning. It was only then when I went to pay for the ciggies and iced tea that I realised that I'd accidentally used the only 1,000 baht note I had to pay the check-bin, and I didn't have enough cash to cover the minimart bill. So I was rather confused. I still didn't know the words for "sorry" but I tried to look surprised and by gesture explain to the shop attendant that I had made a monetary mistake. If it wasn't for the embarrassment, it was probably quite an hilarious event. I went back up the road to the Silver Star where they were closing up. I should mention that these mates of Anuchit's were BIG blokes. I wasn't all that keen on the idea of getting assertive about MY mistake. I was actually a little wary of having even walked back in, not having any idea of how people in Thailand react to situations like this. Anuchit saw me walk in and knew innediately why I'd come back. The other three just sat there staring at me trying not to burst out laughing. No problem. 900 baht in 100s handed straight back to me. Some months later, Anuchit did mention that at the time, he thought I was offering a very big tip for the good service, although considering the additional 50 baht note on top of the 1,000, I reckon he was just trying to politely explain how a farang and his money soon go separate ways, and more fool me if I'd walked off and not realised my own stupidity. That old saying, don't look a gift horse in the mouth probably applies fairly well. If someone had paid me 10 times what I asked and then walked off, I can't be sure whether I'd run after them to tell them, although with shops and places and people I know, I try to make a point of returning any overpayment of change in a transaction. It happens once or twice over a year. What I see as having begun the friendship back on that night, was the honest way he went about sorting things out with no denial or any kind of attempt to dissuade me from asking for the change for the accidental 1,000 baht note that had the corner folded over so the numbers read 1,00 and I didn't know any better. These were big blokes. If he'd just told me to get out and go home, I know that that is exactly what I would have done. One might say I was still mystified by the indigenous back then. I hope that this long-winded saga isn't getting too off-topic. I rekcon it relates to the thread reasonably well, but I'll refrain from adding anymore photos if that's okay. I have plenty but I don't think anyone really needs to see them.

    • 61 replies, 76,687 views

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    Writer jailed for 'insulting' Thai royals

    By Voice, Created on: 19/01/2009, Last updated on: 17/06/2009

    » Writer jailed for 'insulting' Thai royals Australian writer Harry Nicolaides is jailed for three years after being found guilty of insulting the Thai monarchy in his novel. Today news from the BBC, after heard the news I thought that maybe it time that maybe we should all discussing this kind of...

    • airport_worker commented : [quote="stilljustbrowsing":3uqefjx5][quote="airport_worker":3uqefjx5]Well......not good news..... Truly very sorry for him - perhaps he can ghost-write Viktor Bout's autobiography while waiting. That's probably safer than his own writing proved to be.....[/quote:3uqefjx5] Sorry to sound picky, but an "autobiography" is written by the person who's life the story is about. In that sense, he would only end up in more trouble! [/quote:3uqefjx5] Still trying not to be pendantic, but many "autobiographies" have been "ghost-written" - basically the person tells his story, and a professional writer wites it from the teller's perspective. /quote A ghostwriter is a professional writer who is paid to write books, articles, stories, reports, or other content which are officially credited to another person. Celebrities, executives, and political leaders often hire ghostwriters to draft or edit autobiographies, magazine articles, or other written material. In music, ghostwriters are used in film score composition, as well as in pop music such as Top 40, country, and hip-hop. The ghostwriter is sometimes acknowledged by the author or publisher for his or her writing services. /unquote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostwriter Anyway, I'll have a glass of wine now - and will forgo the beer tonight

    • 312 replies, 1,158,552 views

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    men in tight brown shirts and related stories

    By fast eddy, Created on: 05/02/2009, Last updated on: 06/02/2009

    » Todya's opinion page saw a highly charged discussion on Thailand's thin brown line (well except for those in the 'oh my God it's 40 inches' weight control scheme) and their creative policing of the realm. I'm sure most of us have experienced twilight zone mini-episodes with these gentlemen and a couple...

    • sulasno commented : [quote="fast eddy":gf2c2q2p]Todya's opinion page saw a highly charged discussion on Thailand's thin brown line (well except for those in the 'oh my God it's 40 inches' weight control scheme) and their creative policing of the realm. I'm sure most of us have experienced twilight zone mini-episodes with these gentlemen and a couple of us thought it might be interesting or amusing to share our own personal experiences/kodak moments! Off the top of my head, one comes to mind when I was travelling to school from Nonthaburi to Patumwan. I was driving in the vicinity of Samsen train station when I really hit the morning commuting traffic at a set of lights. the road was running parallel with the train tracks and I was following the same direction into the heart of Bangkok. All three lanes where full of traffic and eventually we got the green light to set off. I was flagged over by a cop standing on the other side of the crossroads - along the route I was taking. He informed me that the left hand lane was for those only turning left across the tracks - not to continue straight across the junction. I pointed out that there was no sign to that effect to which he replied that the markings were painted on the road -the same one that had been covered in cars and buses tail to tail when I drew up to the lights . My protestations went unheeded and I had to pay up a 200bt fine . The problem? I only had a 500bt note and he only had 100bt change. However, in true Thai style he winked and told me to wait. He went back into the traffic and stopped another motorist, fined him two hundred baht and added that to the 100 he already had to give me my 300bt change and waved me back out into the traffic! Priceless and well worth the 200bt fine just for the story Would be interested to hear from the rest of you - it could make a good book. Cheers Fast Eddy[/quote:gf2c2q2p] hmmmmm ......................... didn't you try to bargain it down to just 100 baht (just like true Thai style) ? I had something similar; A 500 baht to pay a 100 baht "fine" told Bangkok's finest to hang on while I had to p e e (was stopped at an intersection with a petrol kiosk nearby) got change for my 500 into 5 red ones and toss one into the drawer of his table

    • fast eddy commented : Sulasmo, Yes, I managed to get the price down from the original of 500bt down to 200bt - better than nothing. You did the right thing in calling the 'pee' shot. You weren't faced with the 'no-change' line as he put your purple in his top pocket Fast Eddy

    • 7 replies, 7,650 views

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    Baht too strong - urgently needs freedom to float

    By oldexplorer, Created on: 12/03/2009, Last updated on: 04/11/2015

    » As the massive Chinese economy begins a freefall descent in response to the Western financial collapse, the Abhisit government needs to assist Thai exports by allowing the Baht to float downwards. Keeping the Baht slavishly locked to the US Dollar is short-sighted, and will simply make Thai exports...

    • Sean Moran commented : [quote="villager":1xz93wx9]Ah Well Sean , i suppose it could be far worse eh , the scenario of parity 1 baht for one Aussy Dollar which you yourself put forward as a good idea ,could well prove the death knell for Aussy pensioners living here, and indeed Aussy Tourism too, and it is so gratifying for me that you get so much enjoyment out of the predicaments of others, so i just suppose i,ll have to struggle on with my 2 pensions and 2 rented property's back home with the Miserly sum of 68,000 baht a month until things get better won,t I,He,he,he,ha,ha,ha,ho,ho,ho.[/quote:1xz93wx9] Oh dear. You do realise that some of your servants are going to have to be dismissed now, don't you? You might even have to get a job yourself rather than have to live on such a meagre pittance as ten times the average Thai monthly salary. Oh how my heart bleeds for you. All this fairness is JUST NOT FAIR ON THE BRITISH and we demand action now! Hey! Here's an idea. Why don't you just top some old codger who's on his last legs anyway and then steal his identity and you could have three pensions and maybe even another rental as well, depending on how you play your cards!

    • 36 replies, 213,281 views

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    Stimulating the economy

    By kngdady, Created on: 24/03/2009, Last updated on: 22/12/2010

    » One way to make money for the country is to establish a gaming zone such as Phuket or in a resort area. I believe most countries have some form of gambling from hourse races to lotterys. The money brought in through gaming can help fund a varity of projects such as education, improving infastructure...

    • PettyTyrant commented : [quote="Papadragon":1ijqinfs]It's a brand new Thai company "Rent A Mob" (soon to be listed on the falling SET) formed to provide something to do for the unemployed people coming out of all other industries, the tourist industry in particular Wealthy individuals or groups of wealthy individuals or even Governments can hire mobs up to 100,000 strong and over Call them PAD or UDD or whatever you like The hours are pleasant and you get to spend a lot of time singing and dancing with your workmates (that's when you're not being shot at) Get to invade Government property, airports and burn a few buses The uniforms, food, transport and medical care is all free and you get THB500 a day to start with possibilities for promotion especially now as they've arrested the top people of the UDD Apply at your local recruitment office - no one refused = we are an equal opportunities company - no age limits - no formal qualifications required any male, female and anything in-between guaranteed employment Especially welcome are ladies with babies and small children (you get THB200 extra if you bring a small child to work) Why not try it it's better than breaking your back cutting cane, paddling round a field or cutting rubber trees for US$4 a day[/quote:1ijqinfs] Seems like a lot of countries have similar problems right now... not all of them emerging market countries either... FoX News is promoting this anti-Obama Tea Party thing... A fine example of a wealth foreigners (Rupert Murdock), manipulating plebes to do his bidding so he can avoid increased taxes and knock down legislation on increasing the inheritance tax...

    • 12 replies, 36,581 views

  • News & article

    It's just not cricket (I Wish)

    Brunch, Andrew Biggs, Published on 03/01/2010

    » I write this from a dark corner of my bedroom in my mother's holiday unit in Marcoola, Queensland, a room to which I have retreated in order to escape the scourge that infects this otherwise idyllic Australian holiday I'm enjoying this week. It's cricket, and I can't escape it.

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    Adding value to values

    Learningpost, Edward Roy Krishnan, PHD, Published on 09/02/2010

    » One of the major purposes of schools as a social institution is to teach and perpetuate human values. Good values are key to communal solidarity and harmonious living among people.

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    Getting creative

    Database, Published on 10/02/2010

    » No 1 yuppiephone network Advanced Info Service of Shingapore issued an "Oh yeah?" challenge to you No 1 state-owned G3 provider, TOT, to wit: If you don't let AIS use your 3G services, we won't let any of the TOT subscribers use AIS networks for calling outside the 3G area - meaning about 99.8 percent of Thailand; to rehash the story up to now: AIS has no 3G service but lusts after it, while TOT has installed some 3G carriers for a few thousand users in a couple of corners of Bangkok, and may have some service in Pattaya within a few months, or so.

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