gohmer commented : I knew when I posted this I would get some heat. No problem, I'm used to it. Everyone had very good counter points and I appreciate it. I will only comment on Khun Na Fianna's comments: [quote:oltbaoav]America can act like a playboy in Thailand and do (pretty much) what they like[/quote:oltbaoav] I'm married and came here to work for an American Company courted by the Thai BOI and far from a Playboy. Also, those that do come here, and there's 2,500,000 Europeans/yr that come here too, to be playboys couldn't do so if Thailand wasn't world renown for offering that type of tourism. [quote:oltbaoav]Pick up your closest 'American History' book. Go to the end. Flick back 5 chapters. This is the point where our histories diverge. Edit to say: I'm European[/quote:oltbaoav] That's exactly what I was referring to. America rejected European elitism, autocratic rule, imperialism, etc from its beginning. For example: 40 million Germans, 15 million Asians, 45 million Africans, 30 million Irish, etc, etc all leaving those countries because of economic, religious, racial prejudices, and endless wars. [quote:oltbaoav]Don't forget Thailands neighbours too!!![/quote:oltbaoav] Again, read some history. Vietnam, Laos - if America hadn't been here, Thailand wouldn't have a Monarchy today, it too would be communist. Consider Thai history from 1970-1980 with communists. Remember the 1978 surrender of Thai communists. Also, America wasn't fighting Vietnam, it was fighting the Soviet Union's spread of communism and their mandate to end capitalism and democracy (something that has helped Thailand prosper since the end of WWII). Well, we won that war in 1990 and since then even China has turned capitalists - now look at their success. Oh, and by the way, we didn't start the cold-war. And, it wasn't America, it was France, that ruthlessly occupied Laos, Vietnam, and Cambodia and stole land from Thailand for 100+ years. [quote:oltbaoav]we dont get up in arms over a T-Shirt[/quote:oltbaoav] No you don't, because if you had a t-shirt like that about the monarchy, you'd go to prison, so dah! Last points: America has been a strategic partner that has helped keep Thailand independent for a long time. Even after WWII when your country sided with Nazis, Fascists, and Imperialistic Japan, the French and English wanted to put Thailand under their rule, it was America that kept Thailand free from their colonialist tendencies. America is also Thailand largest export market and 2nd largest investor after Japan in bringing new, high paying jobs to Thailand like the ones my company brought here that pay salaries between B45,000-95,000/month versus the B5,000/mo that's Thailand minimum wage salary (and they work 40 hrs/wk for that, not 60 hrs/wk)

Na Fianna commented : To Gohmer: [quote:2tni33wp]I'm married and came here to work for an American Company courted by the Thai BOI and far from a Playboy. Also, those that do come here, and there's 2,500,000 Europeans/yr that come here too, to be playboys couldn't do so if Thailand wasn't world renown for offering that type of tourism.[/quote:2tni33wp] Sir I was certainly not referring to your good self with my comment. Although what you state is true it's hardly a situation for ordinary Thai people to be thankful for. Regarding which came first, that will only lead to a pointless debate, my point is that ordinary Thai folk shouldnt(necessarily) feel a particularly special bond with USA or any western country simply because their citizens flock here in their droves. [quote:2tni33wp]That's exactly what I was referring to. America rejected European elitism, autocratic rule, imperialism, etc from its beginning. For example: 40 million Germans, 15 million Asians, 45 million Africans, 30 million Irish, etc, etc all leaving those countries because of economic, religious, racial prejudices, and endless wars.[/quote:2tni33wp] I think if you read the last 7 words from your quote that the worm has definitely turned. As stated, my personal opinion of ordinary Americans is quite high, however i believe these situations are large problems in USA at present. Economic strife is repeated ad nauseum from every news source. Relgious prejudice examples can be gleaned from almost every facet of American life e.g. Iraq/Afghanistan, Fundamental Christians teaching such ghastly things as creationism not to mention people turning their back on Roman Catholcism due to countless sex scandals. Racial Prejudice is, i think, something i needn't bother highlighting any examples of. Endless wars is perhaps a bit unfair but USA is starting ot rack them up too! [quote:2tni33wp]Again, read some history. Vietnam, Laos - if America hadn't been here, Thailand wouldn't have a Monarchy today, it too would be communist. Consider Thai history from 1970-1980 with communists. Remember the 1978 surrender of Thai communists. Also, America wasn't fighting Vietnam, it was fighting the Soviet Union's spread of communism and their mandate to end capitalism and democracy (something that has helped Thailand prosper since the end of WWII). Well, we won that war in 1990 and since then even China has turned capitalists - now look at their success. Oh, and by the way, we didn't start the cold-war. And, it wasn't America, it was France, that ruthlessly occupied Laos, Vietnam, and Cambodia and stole land from Thailand for 100+ years. [/quote:2tni33wp] I would tend to consider your comments in line with the brain washed anti-communist rhetoric of Senator McCarthy and others, again i dont intend that as a personal attack, more the left over feeling of a lot Americans who were raised in a time of constant propaganda. I think if you read some more S.E. Asian history you shall discover that Ho Chi Minh himself came to The United States and the UN in order gain support for a democratic Vietnam, a chance that unfortunately due to France's standing was never grasped. What did happen was that Vietnam defeated an ex-colonial, weak, overstretched France to gain a semblence of freedom until America meddled in affairs(in the name of stoping the reds of course) with puppet governments that infuriated even the south Vietnamese to the point of rebellion. And this was all before the Viet-US war which ended in anything but victory for USA. Slightly getting off topic here but what im trying to say is that USA aren't or weren't the incorruptible and morally perfect saviours of which you describe. Capitalism is of course better than communism however it doesnt grant a country carte blanche to behave as they see fit and then to expect thanks and praise without criticism. [quote:2tni33wp]No you don't, because if you had a t-shirt like that about the monarchy, you'd go to prison, so dah! Last points: America has been a strategic partner that has helped keep Thailand independent for a long time. Even after WWII when your country sided with Nazis, Fascists, and Imperialistic Japan, the French and English wanted to put Thailand under their rule, it was America that kept Thailand free from their colonialist tendencies. America is also Thailand largest export market and 2nd largest investor after Japan in bringing new, high paying jobs to Thailand like the ones my company brought here that pay salaries between B45,000-95,000/month versus the B5,000/mo that's Thailand minimum wage salary (and they work 40 hrs/wk for that, not 60 hrs/wk)[/quote:2tni33wp] I did edit the my last post to say that im European, Irish in fact. I was simply referring to your question asking would i be offended to see my countrys flag on the teeshirt. And while i of course agree that USA have in many ways been a force for the greater good in a lot of areas in the world the underlying point of my previous post is that this can't come at whatever price the USA demands and if somebody decides to criticise America or any western state, no matter how trivial, perhaps instead of letting it get to us we may remember that we're all as imperfect as each other.

Hard_done_by commented : [quote="Na Fianna":2eknthcp] ... I would tend to consider your comments in line with the brain washed anti-communist rhetoric of Senator McCarthy and others, again i dont intend that as a personal attack, more the left over feeling of a lot Americans who were raised in a time of constant propaganda. I think if you read some more S.E. Asian history you shall discover that Ho Chi Minh himself came to The United States and the UN in order gain support for a democratic Vietnam, a chance that unfortunately due to France's standing was never grasped. What did happen was that Vietnam defeated an ex-colonial, weak, overstretched France to gain a semblence of freedom until America meddled in affairs(in the name of stoping the reds of course) with puppet governments that infuriated even the south Vietnamese to the point of rebellion. ...[/quote:2eknthcp] Well posted.

Jason McDonald commented : I agree with elements from all your posts. But essentially, Thailand is not a racist country because it hates all foreigners equally, including their own people at times. Just a joke (พูดเล่น) but seriously people are not going to turn around the way the Thai system operates anytime fast. Quite frankly, the Thai system has too much to worry about with potential encroachments on its sovereignty on virtually every border, plus the troubles controlling the population within. The problems you are talking about are deeply entrenched in the Thai culture and within the language. This makes it very hard to change. Even really nice Thai people, who I meet every day, cannot help but be racist because of their culture and language. They find it hard to think any other way. That is why a Thai person who lives in a western country, enjoying all of the west’s relative freedoms still supports the Thai racist way. Just roll over and accept it and enjoy the other benefits that Thailand offers (which are many or we wouldn’t be discussing this) or go to Vietnam which, in my opinion, will overtake Thailand as the place to be on the SE Asian Peninsula in the near future.

hidalgo commented : This is a very precarious situation for Thailand, and the Thai people. Without tourists, what would the common people do? They are out of work! Selling food, khanoms, bric-a-brac, everything! If the Thai smile is absent, most foreigners would go to other Asian countries like Indonesia or Vietnam. It is too late already. Most foreigners and their governments no longer think Thailand as their special place to be or go in holidays or even business. Hopefully the present government under Apisit proacts fast and changes the situation. Best regards,

Sean Moran commented : [quote:2ouf4ls0]This is a very precarious situation for Thailand, and the Thai people. Without tourists, what would the common people do? They are out of work! Selling food, khanoms, bric-a-brac, everything! If the Thai smile is absent, most foreigners would go to other Asian countries like Indonesia or Vietnam. It is too late already. Most foreigners and their governments no longer think Thailand as their special place to be or go in holidays or even business. Hopefully the present government under Apisit proacts fast and changes the situation. Best regards, [/quote:2ouf4ls0] Fair point. Also welcome to the forum Hidalgo. I suppose in this case it might come back to what the 'common people' are doing to make a living. Although I agree with you, from what I've heard about the global financial crisis and the recent negative publicity that has fallen on Thailand's tourist industry, that there seems to have been a rather significant lull in the tourist industry lately, and there is an indirect effect throughout the economy as those employed in the tourist industry have less to spend down at the local 711 each week, and so forth, I do wonder though what DIRECT effect this has on the majority. On one hand, perhaps without so many tourists, there's a reduction in foreign revenue and some then have to find other jobs - driving a truck or a bus or a taxi, or working in a factory or whatever pays. On the other hand, is there a positive aspect to it all, when the country is not so burdened by such an influx of the perhaps uneducated tourist - the negative sort of tourist that might be in part the cause of some of the losses regarding culture. Just a first thought, and mainly wanted to say welcome to the forum. I believe that maybe there has been too much focus on tourism in Thailand over the recent decades and maybe there's a levelling effect as things return back to normal, although this is an extremely debatable opinion and I'll be hojnest in saying that I personally see a very great difference between [i:2ouf4ls0]travellers[/i:2ouf4ls0] and [i:2ouf4ls0]tourists[/i:2ouf4ls0] and like to fancy myself as more of the former than the latter, but that's just my own attitude problem.

378Canuck commented : I think it is a good system at this time and shouldn't change. It was like that when I first came to Thailand in early 1990. If foreigners were allowed to own land - then all the rice fields would now be converted to golf courses and Japan would own half of Thailand and Indians would have shops set up selling golf clothing all around them. The Chinese would have sweat shops employing underage workers and slave workers from Burma, Laos and Vietnam making golf clubs and golf knock off clothing. Japs, Chinese and Indians would be flying in every weekend on 767 to play golf and head back to be at work in Japan on Monday. I think there is wisdom about the Thai people and it's government and my hats off to them in trying to keep some of their country and culture for a few more years anyway. Some Farang don't think past their stupid noses, and only think of themselves as usual. By the way I am a Farang.

Sean Moran commented : [quote="stilljustbrowsing":3c2l5zzp]I made it up, glad you like it! (your welcome BTW) Always thought "they all lived happily ever after" sounded better than "Once upon a time" [/quote:3c2l5zzp] In a linear train of thought it certainly brings Aesop out of his shell for the last laugh: [img:3c2l5zzp]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/The_Tortoise_and_the_Hare_-_Project_Gutenberg_etext_19994.jpg/180px-The_Tortoise_and_the_Hare_-_Project_Gutenberg_etext_19994.jpg[/img:3c2l5zzp] It also fit with the vintage of the Farang-jai-yen_II's Vietnam War in some debatably Lenonnesque manner, but the part I like the best is the way you reversed the syntax order to draw attention back to the beginning of the axiom, which was [b:3c2l5zzp][i:3c2l5zzp]the[/i:3c2l5zzp] end[/b:3c2l5zzp]! Genius! I'll make sure to let people know who thought it up as the opportunity arises, and thanks for letting me borrow it for a while. (I knew on Thursday that you were about to say something profound. Whatever you're smoking this year, don't stop!) ---oOo--- On the equivalence of the topic subject with ignorance of responsibility, it has been clear from the start of the thread that this is just a minor aspect (AND A RATHER PESSIMISTIC ONE) of what's called Face. With regards this minor negative component, would it be more accurate to translate into Hollywood English as "passing-the-buck" or in the cases that have been most obvious recently in some places, "shifting-the-blame" ? Could it be that some traditional cultures have developed effective ways of exposing these universal albeit less-than-human frailties while others still retain loopholes open to "transparency" abuse aka "rumour" and "gossip"? Nobody forces minors to patronise adult venues. Heaven help anybody who dares to blame the kids' parent/s for contributing by nurture AND NATURE to the global imbecile epidemic . Face promotes honesty, however rare that might be in this world. :

sym commented : I am also surprised by posts such as dual pricing for haircuts. In all the years I have either traveled in and out of Thailand or lived there, I have never encountered this either. Mind you, I always go for the ritzy 200 Baht salon places, which only have one price for all, so I am simply not aware of barbers charging different prices for different groups of people. If this is really the case, then Thailand must be the only place that I have heard of doing such practices. On the other hand, for some reason I usually get haircuts in Cambodia, Vietnam etc. even if I'm only in those countries for a short border run or business trip rather than Thailand. I suppose it comes down to the fact that I like change and it's a bit boring doing the same thing all the time (like getting a haircut in Thailand), which explains why I like doing these things in other countries...and I don't feel I would ever have gotten ripped off in those places either. I think it's more likely that some hairdressers in Thailand (and elsewhere) would try to get you to pay for extra "services" such as getting your ears cleaned etc. so instead of a 200 Baht haircut and shampoo, you end up paying 500-1000 Baht. Again, this doesn't happen everywhere (perhaps more likely in the tourist areas, since upcountry places wouldn't be as used to serving or expecting to serve foreigners). Also, like many posters here (including tourists and residents of Thailand and neighboring countries), I feel it's not about how much we get charged for something. I would be more than happy paying 400 Baht for a haircut (at a place that charges everyone the same) than a place that charges 200 for a foreigner and only 150 for a Thai, or 4000 Baht for a 5-star hotel rather than one that offers me a 3000 Baht deal but where locals pay either less (say, 2000 Baht, or more, say 5000 Baht) and knowing that everyone gets treated fairly. It's not about paying less than a local; it's about everyone paying the same and getting the same treatment, not better, not worse, just the same.