fast eddy commented : Klauskent, thanks for the compliment - I do like to put it down on paper/post it on the internet. Sean, mate, you have found a very good friend and I too have benefitted from being on the inside of relationships out here. I do wonder if your mistake would have been rectified it it happened in the big mango. fortunately, as I mentioned, there are still parts of Thailand who view westerners with favour and are happy to help us struggle along.Hope you manage to get back into contact as it is a shame to loose a truly good friend like that! I well remember a story told to me by a friend when we were living in Tokyo. He had had a night out on the tiles and had stumbled his way to a street stall selling ramen. Being much the worse for wear,he sank to a chair and downed a dish of the tasty pick-me-up. Having paid, his thoughts turned to his warm futon which was whispering in his ear 'sleep, sleeeep, sleeeeeeeeppp'. He staggered on home, though by now he was a little wary, for gathered on the corner was a gang of skinheads, tattooed-up, with big doc martin boots, red braces and stay-press jeans. Now, this was about 2 a.m. and he could barely walk - the last thing he needed was a run in with a fascist/rascist gang of Japanese skins! Making sure he didn't make any eye-contact, he made his way home hoping he'd slipped by undetected. However, not before too long he heard the pounding of boots on cement paving stones - a lot of them and they were getting closer. He tried not to panick and thought if he didn't turn around or start running maybe everything would work out o.k. By now the thump of boots were ringing in his ears as they caught up with him. He braced himself for the worst and just stopped walking as they surrounded him. This is it, he thought! The skins, gasping for breath, managed to get out the following in broken English 'Mr. Gaijun san,(Mr. foreigner) Mr. Gaijun san, you forgot your change!' The ramen stall owner had given them the money and sent them off to give it to him! How about that? Not sure about how it works into the thread on 'face' but it sure was an alutristic act by many people to someone they probably would never see again. I usually equate most things to my experiences travelling as that is all I have been doing for the last 30 years. Consequently, I only really understand extremes of relationships between people (nine years in the Royal Navy: living and breathing with guys who had become closer than family) or living across the other side of the world where I am very much on my own as an outsider. Therefore, my take may be different from that of others - still, this does allow me to observe from a distance. Probably, my favourite show of Thai alturism is based on travelling on buses. When I was living day by day earning a couple of hundred baht an hour teaching, I used to travel Bangkok by red and cream buses. Usually, the seats would already be taken and I would be standing. It was a really pleasant feeling when a Thai lady, sometimes young, sometimes still at school and in uniform, would take my bag from me and place it on her lap. She was sharing my load as she had a seat and I was standing! such kind and caring gestures really make the world go around!

fast eddy commented : Cheers Sean, it means a lot coming from you. To give a little more background on the Tokyo story its important to understand one aspect of the 'face' concept Nippon style. To gain 'face' amongst their peers, Japanese youths adopt a 'trendy' style - be it heavy metal head, punk rock, rockabilly, skinheads et al. Indeed, you can go to Yoyogi Park, downtown Tokyo on a Sunday and see them all strut their stuff - its absoultley amazing! Now the level of face is determined by how accurately you can carry off your adopted 'youth cult'. As a consequence, there is a massive industry built around importing the real deal, second hand/cast off clothes from these Western World cults and the Japanesse snap them up. I saw a good documentary on ABC (yes Sean. I even get your government's national tv network in my lounge)on the history of jeans and the interviewed a Japanese youth who was a mailman by day but his 'thing' was collecting vintage Levi Jeans - the older the better. he had quite a collection stored in almost museum like conditions (lovingly wrapped in plastic bags having been pressed and washed). The point is that Japanese study pictures of ordinary western teens from magazines and faithfully set out to replicate the look to the exact detail! The more you committ to your chosen 'image' the more face you gain! So, my mate who was staggering back to his apartment after a night on the sake came across what looked like the most evil gang of skins on the planet. However, the key to note is that the look is only skin deep and they have no affinity to the mind-set of their chosen 'look'. It is essential to understand this. Though they look the spit of Sid Vicious they really are pussycats with no attitude whatsoever. This is no word of a lie. To underscore this fact, I had a one to one lesson with a biker chick (before I got my first high school gig) and at the age of 33 and bored stiff of teaching Japanese girls/women who have the mentality of an 8 year old and still firmly attached to 'my little kitty', I thought "finally, someone I can have something of an adult conversation with". This chick looked straight out of the Hells Angels. So I began the lesson by talking to her with a little of the attitude you'd expect from a Hells Angels chick. She freeked out completely. The manageress had to come in and smooth things over - explain to her that I am a really nice guy and next week I start teaching at the local high school she attended some years before and (get this) move her into the tiny tots room which was full of cuddly toys. The manageress asked her if she'd like to have a cuddly toy to hold and she did - she chose the biggest Winnie the Pooh in the room!! I think this really has some bearing on the face issue we've talked of and though it maybe a little different from the Thai version, it is definitely a factor in Japan. Sean, you may want to check this out with in Japanese you know living in Perth. cheers Fast Eddy

Sean Moran commented : [quote="fast eddy":2s9ochgo] To give a little more background on the Tokyo story it's important to understand one aspect of the 'face' concept Nippon style. To gain 'face' amongst their peers, Japanese youths adopt a 'trendy' style - be it heavy metal head, punk rock, rockabilly, skinheads et al. Indeed, you can go to Yoyogi Park, downtown Tokyo on a Sunday and see them all strut their stuff - it's absolutley amazing! Now the level of face is determined by how accurately you can carry off your adopted 'youth cult'. As a consequence, there is a massive industry built around importing the real deal, second hand/cast off clothes from these Western World cults and the Japanese snap them up. I saw a good documentary on ABC (yes Sean. I even get your government's national tv network in my lounge)on the history of jeans and the interviewed a Japanese youth who was a mailman by day but his 'thing' was collecting vintage Levi Jeans - the older the better. He had quite a collection stored in almost museum like conditions (lovingly wrapped in plastic bags having been pressed and washed). The point is that Japanese study pictures of ordinary western teens from magazines and faithfully set out to replicate the look to the exact detail! The more you commit to your chosen 'image' the more face you gain! So, my mate who was staggering back to his apartment after a night on the sake came across what looked like the most evil gang of skins on the planet. However, the key to note is that the look is only skin deep and they have no affinity to the mind-set of their chosen 'look'. It is essential to understand this. Though they look the spit of Sid Vicious they really are pussycats with no attitude whatsoever. This is no word of a lie. To underscore this fact, I had a one to one lesson with a biker chick (before I got my first high school gig) and at the age of 33 and bored stiff of teaching Japanese girls/women who have the mentality of an 8 year old and still firmly attached to 'my little kitty', I thought "finally, someone I can have something of an adult conversation with". This chick looked straight out of the Hells Angels. So I began the lesson by talking to her with a little of the attitude you'd expect from a Hells Angels chick. She freaked out completely. The manageress had to come in and smooth things over - explain to her that I am a really nice guy and next week I start teaching at the local high school she attended some years before and (get this) move her into the tiny tots room which was full of cuddly toys. The manageress asked her if she'd like to have a cuddly toy to hold and she did - she chose the biggest Winnie the Pooh in the room!! I think this really has some bearing on the face issue we've talked of and though it maybe a little different from the Thai version, it is definitely a factor in Japan. Sean, you may want to check this out with in Japanese you know living in Perth. cheers Fast Eddy[/quote:2s9ochgo] Sub-cultures... The scope of this topic is expanding like a mushroom cloud! (a good one though. How about a magic mushroom cloud? ) No doubt that youth culture is founded in traditional culture and/or a mixture of various national styles, as you mention about the Levis denim hobby, the same as the skinhead - hell's angel - lolita trends. Conversely, if we look at the [i:2s9ochgo]establishment[/i:2s9ochgo] of today and then time-travel back twenty years to look at what the same highly-respected members of our societies were upto back then, it maybe that the crazes of today's youth culture are likely to have some influence on the establishment of the future. What might be seen as unacceptible by today's establishments but okay by the kids' rules might then become the societal norm when those kids grow up, if there's any good in it. That's the secret I reckon. To see cultures evolve positively, sometimes integrating facets of foreign principles providing those are good, while gradually dismissing some of the negatives of the past to the history books, although nothing could be more subjective and prone to differences of opinion when the time comes to decide on what is and isn't good. I'm glad that there's a God up there somewhere who can work those things out, because the job is too complex for me to work out. Probably goes much the same for all of us. As for Japanese folk living here in Perth, I don't know much about it. We Perthites have gone crazy about Japanese restaurants if that's any consolation. There's also no shortage of the same youth cultures here, like the skinheads and the mods and those sorts of artificial faces that help support the fashion industry, but my limited experience with Japanese exchange students here in Perth has almost always been with fairly conservative uni-students who seem to me to be content in Australia with simply being Japanese. I mean this respectfully. There are numerous sub-cultures of first-generation youth from different overseas regions, and we hear a bit on the news about multicultural events, be they formal celebrations or the occasional gang-wars. I'm too old for the nightlife scene thesedays so it's only on Saturday night television news that I ever hear of such things. Here in these apartments, the majority of residents are internationally born and most probably amazingly multilingual in total, but I suppose that with the cost of airfares thesedays, there's a need to sacrifice some of the home-grown fashion expenditure to save the fares to travel. I wonder how, if we assume that cultural standards are dynamic, if not quick to change, these trends in Japanese youth systems, and likewise Thai youth culture, will alter the established norms of tomorrow. One example that comes to mind is the variation of [i:2s9ochgo]khop khun[/i:2s9ochgo], [i:2s9ochgo]khop jai[/i:2s9ochgo]. I'm told that the latter is more the informal, younger generation word for [i:2s9ochgo]thank you[/i:2s9ochgo]. Will these sorts of changes become the standard in fifty years? I hope I'm not taking this too far off-topic here. The comparison you mention between Japan and Thailand is probably something that YOU should write a book about. All I really know about Japan is straight from James Clavell.

fast eddy commented : Wow! What a great topic Yes VP welcome to Thailand - the land of 'special everything for non-thais'. The special price for the houses in a 'forgein zone will be hugely inflated as is the price for entering the Chiang Mai Safari Park, National Parks and Temples when charging a non-Thai! I too met the special price for foreigners a couple of weeks ago. I was informed that the electric sign I errected would incurr tax as would a sign in Thai. However, my sign would be taxed at four times the rate of a Thai sign as it is written in English! The trick to do is to involve yourself in transactions as a seller rather than always the victim (buyer). That way you can pass on the special prices you pay to your Thai customers. Make Budhism work for you - they say its a circle so just keep passing the special prices back to the natives when you can - rule no.1 'there is always a victim. Rule no. 2 'don't be it!' The next thing to do is to shop around! Best to use a Thai friend to help you to 'negotiate' the price. When this is settled then you step in and pay-up - just enjoy the 'great wailing and nashing of teeth' when the vendor realises they missed out on yet another 'special price'! Having said all of that, there are areas of Thailand where they don't price discriminate and treat non-thais as the would thais. Try to settle in one of these places rather than the big cities where you will probably spend most of your times as a 'special price' victim. Finally, to 'watcher'. You can't be serious! Japan is an extremely rascist country I lived there full time for five years and my brother over 20 years and friends are getting up to their quarter century of living there full time! The word you need to use is xenophopic with a capital X! You must have seen the big black buses crawling around the center of Tokyo! These huge buses are draped in the rising sun flag with blacked out windows and manned by extreme right wing Japs dressed in black - belowing through loud speakers that all Japan's woes are caused by foreigners and that they should all be kicked out! Somebody pointed out that Thailand is not really a budhist country and is basically animist with a smatering of hindu. I would agree with this - you only have to look at the rush to buy into the special medalions produced in Nakon Sii Thammarat last year to understand how supersticious the Thais are. They even get their lottery numbers from looking at trees and (get this) pigs! I have no problem with this whatsoever as the cub Kao lady (the mobile shop) in my village in Nonthaburi won the lottery twice by such non-scientific methods. What was annoying was that she bought a ticket numbered the same as my wife's motorbike registration (which she had seen in her dream the night before) and won. Not only that but a few months later she saw the registration of my pick-up truck in a dream and won again!! Thais do sometimes suffer from the 'special prices' though. An example that springs to mind is the special prices promted by some five star hotels and resorts which have deals for tourists but not for the natives. I have read of this a number of times over the years but having said that they get their own back by charging higher prices at other resorts for tourists when compared to natives - see! You've got to get yourself into the trading chain somehow or you will forever end up the victim For as a Jewish friend of mine once said, 'Why did God invent Gentiles? Someone has to pay retail!!' cheers Fast Eddy