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    Domestic / cross cultural issues - Thai / Foreigner concerns

    America bashing at Esplanade Mall

    By gohmer, Created on: 09/05/2010, Last updated on: 11/06/2011

    » I putting this post up because it is related to international relationships with American citizens living and visiting Thailand. It illustrated to me that little is known about America by most people in Thailand, in fact, I think that few in the world truly understand what America is about and how...

    • gohmer commented : I knew when I posted this I would get some heat. No problem, I'm used to it. Everyone had very good counter points and I appreciate it. I will only comment on Khun Na Fianna's comments: [quote:oltbaoav]America can act like a playboy in Thailand and do (pretty much) what they like[/quote:oltbaoav] I'm married and came here to work for an American Company courted by the Thai BOI and far from a Playboy. Also, those that do come here, and there's 2,500,000 Europeans/yr that come here too, to be playboys couldn't do so if Thailand wasn't world renown for offering that type of tourism. [quote:oltbaoav]Pick up your closest 'American History' book. Go to the end. Flick back 5 chapters. This is the point where our histories diverge. Edit to say: I'm European[/quote:oltbaoav] That's exactly what I was referring to. America rejected European elitism, autocratic rule, imperialism, etc from its beginning. For example: 40 million Germans, 15 million Asians, 45 million Africans, 30 million Irish, etc, etc all leaving those countries because of economic, religious, racial prejudices, and endless wars. [quote:oltbaoav]Don't forget Thailands neighbours too!!![/quote:oltbaoav] Again, read some history. Vietnam, Laos - if America hadn't been here, Thailand wouldn't have a Monarchy today, it too would be communist. Consider Thai history from 1970-1980 with communists. Remember the 1978 surrender of Thai communists. Also, America wasn't fighting Vietnam, it was fighting the Soviet Union's spread of communism and their mandate to end capitalism and democracy (something that has helped Thailand prosper since the end of WWII). Well, we won that war in 1990 and since then even China has turned capitalists - now look at their success. Oh, and by the way, we didn't start the cold-war. And, it wasn't America, it was France, that ruthlessly occupied Laos, Vietnam, and Cambodia and stole land from Thailand for 100+ years. [quote:oltbaoav]we dont get up in arms over a T-Shirt[/quote:oltbaoav] No you don't, because if you had a t-shirt like that about the monarchy, you'd go to prison, so dah! Last points: America has been a strategic partner that has helped keep Thailand independent for a long time. Even after WWII when your country sided with Nazis, Fascists, and Imperialistic Japan, the French and English wanted to put Thailand under their rule, it was America that kept Thailand free from their colonialist tendencies. America is also Thailand largest export market and 2nd largest investor after Japan in bringing new, high paying jobs to Thailand like the ones my company brought here that pay salaries between B45,000-95,000/month versus the B5,000/mo that's Thailand minimum wage salary (and they work 40 hrs/wk for that, not 60 hrs/wk)

    • Na Fianna commented : To Gohmer: [quote:2tni33wp]I'm married and came here to work for an American Company courted by the Thai BOI and far from a Playboy. Also, those that do come here, and there's 2,500,000 Europeans/yr that come here too, to be playboys couldn't do so if Thailand wasn't world renown for offering that type of tourism.[/quote:2tni33wp] Sir I was certainly not referring to your good self with my comment. Although what you state is true it's hardly a situation for ordinary Thai people to be thankful for. Regarding which came first, that will only lead to a pointless debate, my point is that ordinary Thai folk shouldnt(necessarily) feel a particularly special bond with USA or any western country simply because their citizens flock here in their droves. [quote:2tni33wp]That's exactly what I was referring to. America rejected European elitism, autocratic rule, imperialism, etc from its beginning. For example: 40 million Germans, 15 million Asians, 45 million Africans, 30 million Irish, etc, etc all leaving those countries because of economic, religious, racial prejudices, and endless wars.[/quote:2tni33wp] I think if you read the last 7 words from your quote that the worm has definitely turned. As stated, my personal opinion of ordinary Americans is quite high, however i believe these situations are large problems in USA at present. Economic strife is repeated ad nauseum from every news source. Relgious prejudice examples can be gleaned from almost every facet of American life e.g. Iraq/Afghanistan, Fundamental Christians teaching such ghastly things as creationism not to mention people turning their back on Roman Catholcism due to countless sex scandals. Racial Prejudice is, i think, something i needn't bother highlighting any examples of. Endless wars is perhaps a bit unfair but USA is starting ot rack them up too! [quote:2tni33wp]Again, read some history. Vietnam, Laos - if America hadn't been here, Thailand wouldn't have a Monarchy today, it too would be communist. Consider Thai history from 1970-1980 with communists. Remember the 1978 surrender of Thai communists. Also, America wasn't fighting Vietnam, it was fighting the Soviet Union's spread of communism and their mandate to end capitalism and democracy (something that has helped Thailand prosper since the end of WWII). Well, we won that war in 1990 and since then even China has turned capitalists - now look at their success. Oh, and by the way, we didn't start the cold-war. And, it wasn't America, it was France, that ruthlessly occupied Laos, Vietnam, and Cambodia and stole land from Thailand for 100+ years. [/quote:2tni33wp] I would tend to consider your comments in line with the brain washed anti-communist rhetoric of Senator McCarthy and others, again i dont intend that as a personal attack, more the left over feeling of a lot Americans who were raised in a time of constant propaganda. I think if you read some more S.E. Asian history you shall discover that Ho Chi Minh himself came to The United States and the UN in order gain support for a democratic Vietnam, a chance that unfortunately due to France's standing was never grasped. What did happen was that Vietnam defeated an ex-colonial, weak, overstretched France to gain a semblence of freedom until America meddled in affairs(in the name of stoping the reds of course) with puppet governments that infuriated even the south Vietnamese to the point of rebellion. And this was all before the Viet-US war which ended in anything but victory for USA. Slightly getting off topic here but what im trying to say is that USA aren't or weren't the incorruptible and morally perfect saviours of which you describe. Capitalism is of course better than communism however it doesnt grant a country carte blanche to behave as they see fit and then to expect thanks and praise without criticism. [quote:2tni33wp]No you don't, because if you had a t-shirt like that about the monarchy, you'd go to prison, so dah! Last points: America has been a strategic partner that has helped keep Thailand independent for a long time. Even after WWII when your country sided with Nazis, Fascists, and Imperialistic Japan, the French and English wanted to put Thailand under their rule, it was America that kept Thailand free from their colonialist tendencies. America is also Thailand largest export market and 2nd largest investor after Japan in bringing new, high paying jobs to Thailand like the ones my company brought here that pay salaries between B45,000-95,000/month versus the B5,000/mo that's Thailand minimum wage salary (and they work 40 hrs/wk for that, not 60 hrs/wk)[/quote:2tni33wp] I did edit the my last post to say that im European, Irish in fact. I was simply referring to your question asking would i be offended to see my countrys flag on the teeshirt. And while i of course agree that USA have in many ways been a force for the greater good in a lot of areas in the world the underlying point of my previous post is that this can't come at whatever price the USA demands and if somebody decides to criticise America or any western state, no matter how trivial, perhaps instead of letting it get to us we may remember that we're all as imperfect as each other.

    • evan10 commented : Gohmer, there are many people in the US who are pretty chauvinistic and will insult other countries. I think that in every country there are chauvinists who think their country is the best. Just think about how many times you've heard people in the US denigrate France or Canada for no reason. Or think about how people talk about the Muslim countries. We changed the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries for a few years after 9/11. How stupid was that? This T-shirt is probably harmless. There are a lot of other causes in Thailand that are more worthy of your time. Yes, maybe that t-shirt is a little offensive, but there are legitimate reasons for people in SE Asia to hate the US. The US dropped more bombs on Laos during the Vietnam War than all countries dropped on each other in World War II combined. We flew 580,344 bombing missions over the country. Thirty percent of these munitions didn't explode, and are still laying around the country. Every year, people are wounded, maimed or killed because of these bombs. Here's a link about it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8089366.stm. We also killed perhaps over a million people in Cambodia as well. While trying to counter the communist insurgency in Cambodia, the US destroyed the rural areas of the country, driving millions of people from the countryside to the cities. The population of Phnom Penh increased from 375,000 to roughly 2 million. This caused widespread famine and death. By the CIA's own estimates, 600,000 Cambodians died from US and South Vietnamese invasions from 1970-75. When the US left Cambodia in 1975, we estimated that another million Cambodians would die as a result of famine. Here are some links about the US involvement in Cambodia during and after the Vietnam War: http://www.understandingpower.com/Chapter3.htm#f60 http://www.onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1900s ... ia1970.htm Even though you don't learn much about this in high school and college, the US is an imperial power. We didn't fight wars all over the place to fight Communism. We have fought 3 large wars since the fall of Communism 20 years ago, so if anything, we have become more aggressive. We fight wars to benefit big business, and use the threat of Communism or Terrorism to whip Americans into enough of a frenzy to approve of international violence.

    • 119 replies, 154,424 views

    Domestic / cross cultural issues - Thai / Foreigner concerns

    Land purchase through Thai spouse forbidden: Land Dept

    By Suttisan, Created on: 28/05/2009, Last updated on: 02/10/2016

    » -- Land purchase through Thai spouse forbidden: Land Dept The director general of the Land Department has reiterated that foreigners using Thai nominees to buy land anywhere in the country will have their land title deeds revoked if caught – even if the nominee in question is a lawfully wedded...

    • pachangamac042 commented : Thanks for the article Charlie, even I am not buying it. Following some notes from my side. “Why can't foreigners own a piece of the Land of Smiles? This is a contention that no doubt preys on the minds of many of the country's foreign residents.” Could the answer be; because most land is own by Chinese-Thais and other very high up people, and they do not want to share? “All Thais are proud that their country has never been colonised. (Yes, I know Thailand was occupied by Japan during World War Two.) At the same time, most Thais resent how Western powers systematically shifted away the land we considered ours (namely the British and the French - the Malaya states and Indochina) and held legal, trade and tax privileges over Siamese people living in Siam. To understand why Thais think and act as we do today is to understand Thai history and the Thai consciousness.” This sounds like bs to me. I would bet some money, that most Thais have no idea about history, well, at least not this part of history. I would even bet, that most Thais, would not mind us to own land in Thailand. I say it is the hi so witch does not want it. “Those historical lessons invoke in Thais a feeling of patriotism, and with it, fear and suspicion of the West. We grew up reading books and hearing stories of how Thailand, or Siam, suffered under the bullying of Western powers. It has become part of the collective consciousness of the nation to protect and preserve what is ours.” 55555 – reading books and hearing stories… Most Thais may know a little bit about the wars with Burma and Laos, but again, I bet, that most Thais have no idea about Western influences in Thailand.

    • 186 replies, 1,555,754 views

    Domestic / cross cultural issues - Thai / Foreigner concerns

    Can't take it anymore

    By trojan, Created on: 21/07/2009, Last updated on: 01/01/2011

    » I'm curious to know if anyone feels they can't take anymore of the lack of freedom of speech and corruption in Thailand. Maybe you've already packed up and moved on or are seriously contemplating it because of the above reasons or even know people that have left for similar reasons. Personally I've...

    • TheGreatGonzo commented : Being here a long time it is not surprising for the endemic corruption and the ability to fully speak your mind to bring you down. No doubt there is more corruption in Thaiand and less freedom of speech than the UK but let's put things in perspective a little bit: in which neighbouring countries are things better? Obviously not Laos, Myanmar and Cambodia. Malaysia? only good if you are ethnic Malay, anyone else is second class citizen. Singapore? Politics there is something else. In fact in all of Asia in which country do you have less corruption and more freedom? Possibly only Japan am I right?

    • trojan commented : The tips on bringing up my kid were not necessary or comments like corruption doesn't effect your children quite obvious. Although you could argue that the money i flitter away to officials in business and immigration could be contributing to my kids International school bill. Actually where I live there is not an International School, and for the record I don't live in Isaan. What I was more interested in is whether people have left Thailand or were considering it because of the lack of freedom of speech and corruption. And I agree it might be better than Laos or Cambodia or wherever but that's not where we live. For instance I would be reluctant to visit China because of their appalling human rights record and by staying here I start feeling like I'm giving my blessing to corruption and imprisonments that I find very disturbing. Maybe I already got my answer, most people don't care as long as they are ok then why worry about anyone else. If I needed some advice on how to raise my kids this would be the last place I would be looking.

    • stilljustbrowsing commented : [quote="trojan":3nib08su]The tips on bringing up my kid were not necessary or comments like corruption doesn't effect your children quite obvious. Although you could argue that the money i flitter away to officials in business and immigration could be contributing to my kids International school bill. Actually where I live there is not an International School, and for the record I don't live in Isaan. What I was more interested in is whether people have left Thailand or were considering it because of the lack of freedom of speech and corruption. And I agree it might be better than Laos or Cambodia or wherever but that's not where we live. For instance I would be reluctant to visit China because of their appalling human rights record and by staying here I start feeling like I'm giving my blessing to corruption and imprisonments that I find very disturbing. Maybe I already got my answer, most people don't care as long as they are ok then why worry about anyone else. If I needed some advice on how to raise my kids this would be the last place I would be looking.[/quote:3nib08su] Trojan, I personally was trying to give advise based on my 7 years continueous living here in sunny Thailand. I would suspect others were/are trying to do the same. You mentioned your child and I latched onto that aspect of your post because I assumed you can take care of yourself, having moved here in the first place. Freedom of speech has always been a relative term, better you look to responsible speech. In England, human rights currently favours the criminal.

    • 13 replies, 48,430 views

    Domestic / cross cultural issues - Thai / Foreigner concerns

    Real Estate Ownership & Long Term Visas

    By Rochester, NY, Created on: 29/12/2008, Last updated on: 18/06/2009

    » My first introduction to Thailand was long ago. I've been married to my Thai wife 37 yrs. She visits family every 4-5 years. I recently returned for the first time and spent October visiting with family and old friends. I'm approaching that age when retirement is likely around the corner. The...

    • 378Canuck commented : I think it is a good system at this time and shouldn't change. It was like that when I first came to Thailand in early 1990. If foreigners were allowed to own land - then all the rice fields would now be converted to golf courses and Japan would own half of Thailand and Indians would have shops set up selling golf clothing all around them. The Chinese would have sweat shops employing underage workers and slave workers from Burma, Laos and Vietnam making golf clubs and golf knock off clothing. Japs, Chinese and Indians would be flying in every weekend on 767 to play golf and head back to be at work in Japan on Monday. I think there is wisdom about the Thai people and it's government and my hats off to them in trying to keep some of their country and culture for a few more years anyway. Some Farang don't think past their stupid noses, and only think of themselves as usual. By the way I am a Farang.

    • 8 replies, 9,751 views

    Domestic / cross cultural issues - Thai / Foreigner concerns

    Why do ONLY foreigners get special promotion?

    By Anonymous, Created on: 28/01/2008, Last updated on: 05/02/2014

    » The advertising board on the way to Airport is shown "Foreigner Zone.. Buying house (somewhere around Bangkok..) Foreigner, with Special Price!!" I know the property company may want to attract foreigners to invest in property in Thailand. But, what about Thais who also want to own the...

    • Anonymous commented : I've never been completely sure about why exactly this "special" treatment exists. I''ve never found it in Indonesia - for example - where I used to travel a lot. Nor in Malaysia. Nor Singapore. Nor in Cambodia, Laos. I can only compare it to Japanese racism - but Thais have always seemed far less rampantly racist that what one finds in Japan.

    • Xavier Romero-Frias commented : [quote="Ian":1ehayqdf]I've never been completely sure about why exactly this "special" treatment exists. I''ve never found it in Indonesia - for example - where I used to travel a lot. Nor in Malaysia. Nor Singapore. Nor in Cambodia, Laos.[/quote:1ehayqdf] I don't believe what you say. Maybe you didn't stay long enough in those countries. In Sri lanka, Maldives, India, the situation is identical as with the Thai barbers, whether it is paying for the entrance at Colombo Zoo, paying a dentist bill in Male' or a taxi in India. It does not matter if you are a long-time resident or not. Steve, an American friend of mine, called it "skin tax". But I think it has less to do with racism as such than with assumptions, the main assumption being "Foreigners are affluent."

    • overhaul38 commented : [quote="Ian":3dykk01x]I've never been completely sure about why exactly this "special" treatment exists. I''ve never found it in Indonesia - for example - where I used to travel a lot. Nor in Malaysia. Nor Singapore. Nor in Cambodia, Laos. I can only compare it to Japanese racism - but Thais have always seemed far less rampantly racist that what one finds in Japan.[/quote:3dykk01x] It is only a matter of a minor degree. The prime similarities are: 1. Denial of citizenship. To my knowledge no farang has ever been granted Thai citizenship. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. 2. Denial of land ownership. 3. Special pricing at some facilities/markets. 4. Personal reporting requirement every 90 days. I don't know Japan's.

    • 81 replies, 319,453 views

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