Domestic / cross cultural issues - Thai / Foreigner concerns

America bashing at Esplanade Mall

By gohmer, Created on: 09/05/2010, Last updated on: 11/06/2011

» I putting this post up because it is related to international relationships with American citizens living and visiting Thailand. It illustrated to me that little is known about America by most people in Thailand, in fact, I think that few in the world truly understand what America is about and how...

• gohmer commented : [quote="Hard_done_by":3mn3j5ld][quote="Na Fianna":3mn3j5ld] ... I would tend to consider your comments in line with the brain washed anti-communist rhetoric of Senator McCarthy and others, again i dont intend that as a personal attack, more the left over feeling of a lot Americans who were raised in a time of constant propaganda. I think if you read some more S.E. Asian history you shall discover that Ho Chi Minh himself came to The United States and the UN in order gain support for a democratic Vietnam, a chance that unfortunately due to France's standing was never grasped. What did happen was that Vietnam defeated an ex-colonial, weak, overstretched France to gain a semblence of freedom until America meddled in affairs(in the name of stoping the reds of course) with puppet governments that infuriated even the south Vietnamese to the point of rebellion. ...[/quote:3mn3j5ld] Well posted.[/quote:3mn3j5ld] This is another example of how Europeans view Americans, which is just as ignorant as you all claiming we are ignorant about the rest of the world. First, the vast, vast majority of Americans today believe McCarthy was an outright idiot. You'd have to dig hard with someone over 65 to find a believer there, and there's a crap load of documentaries shown on American TV daily about that era and how wrong crazy he was. Second, I too am Irish (1 of the 30 million that choose America over the 5 million that chose to stay in Ireland). Third, I actually believe that communism is a quantum leap forward for countries like China and Vietnam compared to the brutal colonialism of the French or the greedy, power hoarding land-owners of China during the various dynasties. I will tell you also that I think, despite his completely idiotic policies that led to millions dying, Mao is a hero of China. He ended forced marriages and brought love to China for the first time in its history, an unintended consequence of shipping millions of youth off to co-ed work camps. Forth, regardless of past brain-washing, it is historical fact that the Soviet Union took over eastern Europe, lied to the allies and had its own agenda for extending its power. If you read Harford MacKinder's essay on Geographical Politics (1904) - [url:3mn3j5ld]http://www.mindef.gov.sg/safti/pointer/back/journals/1998/Vol24_3/8.htm[/url:3mn3j5ld], which is credited for being one of the most influential theories of world dominance, and what guided Hitler's military agenda, and later Stalin's, you will see that McCarthy actually had good cause for worrying about communism. Fifth, there are small countries around the world that America is credited for having a bad reputation due to intervention, Chile, El Salvador, Iran, etc; however, all of these are unfortunate collateral damage due to the bigger picture of the conflict with Stalin and other Soviet leaders. For those affected in these countries, America will always be view as the bad guy, but bottom line is that every western country was dependent on the US for stopping them (Soviets). And, I would argue that had the Soviets not been a world threat for 50 years, there would have been drastically different agendas in Asia. Consider the fact that the Marshal Plan completely rebuilt Japan - and Germany - after WWII. That was to bring peace and stability. Fighting the Soviets was the end game, and thank god we won.

• Na Fianna commented : Ok Gohmer, Just a couple of things this time, this thread is supposed to be about your horror and disgust at a T-shirt on which the stars and stripes are insulted. [quote:tvr0fnb6]You'd have to dig hard with someone over 65 to find a believer there, and there's a crap load of documentaries shown on American TV daily about that era and how wrong crazy he was.[/quote:tvr0fnb6] Absolutely correct. However the ideals of this man and many many more like him shaped US foreign policy for some time and in at least one instance still does(Cuba). To put this in the same context of your (remarkably Bush-like) collateral damage statement, expect blowback! [quote:tvr0fnb6]Second, I too am Irish (1 of the 30 million that choose America over the 5 million that chose to stay in Ireland). [/quote:tvr0fnb6] Is that supposed to be disaparaging remark regarding Ireland? I think the choice made was mainly between the potato and the not-potato and then work and no work. [quote:tvr0fnb6]McCarthy actually had good cause for worrying about communism[/quote:tvr0fnb6] Of course he did, perhaps even rightly so. It did not excuse his and his country's paranoid, undemocratic internal and external behaviour however. If you're ever talking to Vietnamese people ask them who they would rather run their country, China? Soviet Union? France? USA? each and everyone will tell you that they will only ever be Vietnamese! I think you regard the American way of life as something everyone on earth, either overtly or secretly, aspires to. If people had paid attention to this many moons ago countless innocent lives could have been saved, however America's paranoia regarding Communism led to it invading a land literally on the other side of the world and getting a very bloody nose doing so. [quote:tvr0fnb6]Mao is a hero of China. He ended forced marriages and brought love to China for the first time in its history, an unintended consequence of shipping millions of youth off to co-ed work camps.[/quote:tvr0fnb6] He ended a lot more than forced marriage, however here is another example of what good, staunchly enforced propaganda can do! [quote:tvr0fnb6]Fifth, there are small countries around the world that America is credited for having a bad reputation due to intervention, Chile, El Salvador, Iran, etc; however, all of these are unfortunate collateral damage due to the bigger picture of the conflict with Stalin and other Soviet leaders.[/quote:tvr0fnb6] Well it seems in this case you're part of the collateral damage in that America's 'bad reputation' has led to a (slightly) offensive T-Shirt being printed and ended up offending an American. [quote:tvr0fnb6]And, I would argue that had the Soviets not been a world threat for 50 years, there would have been drastically different agendas in Asia. [/quote:tvr0fnb6] I think it Ironic that Russian history can use this exact phrase, with justification, substituting 'Soviets' for 'Americans'. Anyway, as you've admitted in your post America has a bad reputation(regardless of whether you agree with the reasons why) in a lot of places around the world. So why whine when you see something as ridiculous as an American flag being slightly insulted?

• hyperinflation commented : As an American living in Thailand for over a decade with a family, I would like to say that I respect Mr. Gohmer's right to request a boycott of the Esplanade Mall and the store selling the offensive item. Let's be honest, whether you love or hate America, the shirt is simply in poor taste. I would feel equally strong about his request if the country being specified was North Korea or Iran. There is simply no reason to inspire that kind of hate and rhetoric in this day and age. Free speech it may be, but it is clearly in poor taste, and I think the people selling it need to be made aware of it. This being Thailand, the only way to make them aware of it is to go after the mall owners, who would presumably explain that to the store that they are bad for business and raise their rent if the campaign is successful. That might actually get their attention. A boycott of the store or a letter to their management, which would be sufficient in most other countries, would do nothing here. I want my children to be brought up in an environment where people are respectful of others of all races and nationalities. I recognize that the store has a right to be an ass if they want, but they also have to accept the consequences of being an ass. That is the way things work, and the world will be a better place if people simply tried a little harder to be more considerate. So I will join Mr. Gohmer in boycotting Espalande. I think it is a good idea to show anyone of low moral character that there are consequences to acting to the lowest common denominator. As for the "rah, rah America is the greatest country on earth, capitalism is better than communism, etc. rhetoric", well, that is simply detritus from a brainwashed American. But then again, I hear similar garbage coming from Europeans, Aussies and Kiwis, so there is no reason to bash Americans about it. All Westerners have an overinflated opinion about their accomplishments. Americans just seem to be the worst because they are currently the imperial power at the top of the food chain. The truth is, America rose to prominence because it had extensive access to resources. America became a superpower when oil became the precursor to every other resource, and America was the leading producer of oil. Westerners like to think that it was the superiority of Western culture or Western thought that has given them their privileged status, but really it was nothing more than luck at sitting on top of the greatest cache of resources the world has ever known. Those resources are now expended, and America is beginning its decline to obscurity. The Western ethic will fall with it, and the next empire will likely rise from the East. This will take several more centuries of course. There is nothing special about America or the West. There is nothing special about capitalism. It is a diseased economic system which needs to be obliterated. That does not mean communism is better. Before the sieve of the cold war reduced all economic systems to only 2, there were dozens of different economic systems. America even flirted with distributism for a while, and Thailand's sufficiency economy is a strong contender for the economic system that will rise out of the ashes of the coming global collapse. I just see the comments on this T shirt as a microcosm of the larger arguments going on globally. The fact is, the T shirt is in poor taste. It needs to be removed for the good of the planet. Capitalism is also in poor taste, and it similarly should be removed. Americans need to get used to the fact that they are not special, but they still deserve the respect that should be given to all sentient beings. It is not OK to bash any group, no matter who they are. So, I will support your cause Mr. Gohmer, but I will not support your reasoning. You need to take a closer look at the propaganda you were taught when you were young, and brought with you from America. It has no place in the world today. Americans were just lucky, and now their luck has run out. It was not our superior intellect or culture which gave us our elite status, it was that we raped and pillaged the environment more aggressively than our adversaries. That has consequences, and now we will have to accept them.

• 119 replies, 154,424 views