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    Domestic / cross cultural issues - Thai / Foreigner concerns

    America bashing at Esplanade Mall

    By gohmer, Created on: 09/05/2010, Last updated on: 11/06/2011

    ยป I putting this post up because it is related to international relationships with American citizens living and visiting Thailand. It illustrated to me that little is known about America by most people in Thailand, in fact, I think that few in the world truly understand what America is about and how...

    • gohmer commented : I knew when I posted this I would get some heat. No problem, I'm used to it. Everyone had very good counter points and I appreciate it. I will only comment on Khun Na Fianna's comments: [quote:oltbaoav]America can act like a playboy in Thailand and do (pretty much) what they like[/quote:oltbaoav] I'm married and came here to work for an American Company courted by the Thai BOI and far from a Playboy. Also, those that do come here, and there's 2,500,000 Europeans/yr that come here too, to be playboys couldn't do so if Thailand wasn't world renown for offering that type of tourism. [quote:oltbaoav]Pick up your closest 'American History' book. Go to the end. Flick back 5 chapters. This is the point where our histories diverge. Edit to say: I'm European[/quote:oltbaoav] That's exactly what I was referring to. America rejected European elitism, autocratic rule, imperialism, etc from its beginning. For example: 40 million Germans, 15 million Asians, 45 million Africans, 30 million Irish, etc, etc all leaving those countries because of economic, religious, racial prejudices, and endless wars. [quote:oltbaoav]Don't forget Thailands neighbours too!!![/quote:oltbaoav] Again, read some history. Vietnam, Laos - if America hadn't been here, Thailand wouldn't have a Monarchy today, it too would be communist. Consider Thai history from 1970-1980 with communists. Remember the 1978 surrender of Thai communists. Also, America wasn't fighting Vietnam, it was fighting the Soviet Union's spread of communism and their mandate to end capitalism and democracy (something that has helped Thailand prosper since the end of WWII). Well, we won that war in 1990 and since then even China has turned capitalists - now look at their success. Oh, and by the way, we didn't start the cold-war. And, it wasn't America, it was France, that ruthlessly occupied Laos, Vietnam, and Cambodia and stole land from Thailand for 100+ years. [quote:oltbaoav]we dont get up in arms over a T-Shirt[/quote:oltbaoav] No you don't, because if you had a t-shirt like that about the monarchy, you'd go to prison, so dah! Last points: America has been a strategic partner that has helped keep Thailand independent for a long time. Even after WWII when your country sided with Nazis, Fascists, and Imperialistic Japan, the French and English wanted to put Thailand under their rule, it was America that kept Thailand free from their colonialist tendencies. America is also Thailand largest export market and 2nd largest investor after Japan in bringing new, high paying jobs to Thailand like the ones my company brought here that pay salaries between B45,000-95,000/month versus the B5,000/mo that's Thailand minimum wage salary (and they work 40 hrs/wk for that, not 60 hrs/wk)

    • Na Fianna commented : To Gohmer: [quote:2tni33wp]I'm married and came here to work for an American Company courted by the Thai BOI and far from a Playboy. Also, those that do come here, and there's 2,500,000 Europeans/yr that come here too, to be playboys couldn't do so if Thailand wasn't world renown for offering that type of tourism.[/quote:2tni33wp] Sir I was certainly not referring to your good self with my comment. Although what you state is true it's hardly a situation for ordinary Thai people to be thankful for. Regarding which came first, that will only lead to a pointless debate, my point is that ordinary Thai folk shouldnt(necessarily) feel a particularly special bond with USA or any western country simply because their citizens flock here in their droves. [quote:2tni33wp]That's exactly what I was referring to. America rejected European elitism, autocratic rule, imperialism, etc from its beginning. For example: 40 million Germans, 15 million Asians, 45 million Africans, 30 million Irish, etc, etc all leaving those countries because of economic, religious, racial prejudices, and endless wars.[/quote:2tni33wp] I think if you read the last 7 words from your quote that the worm has definitely turned. As stated, my personal opinion of ordinary Americans is quite high, however i believe these situations are large problems in USA at present. Economic strife is repeated ad nauseum from every news source. Relgious prejudice examples can be gleaned from almost every facet of American life e.g. Iraq/Afghanistan, Fundamental Christians teaching such ghastly things as creationism not to mention people turning their back on Roman Catholcism due to countless sex scandals. Racial Prejudice is, i think, something i needn't bother highlighting any examples of. Endless wars is perhaps a bit unfair but USA is starting ot rack them up too! [quote:2tni33wp]Again, read some history. Vietnam, Laos - if America hadn't been here, Thailand wouldn't have a Monarchy today, it too would be communist. Consider Thai history from 1970-1980 with communists. Remember the 1978 surrender of Thai communists. Also, America wasn't fighting Vietnam, it was fighting the Soviet Union's spread of communism and their mandate to end capitalism and democracy (something that has helped Thailand prosper since the end of WWII). Well, we won that war in 1990 and since then even China has turned capitalists - now look at their success. Oh, and by the way, we didn't start the cold-war. And, it wasn't America, it was France, that ruthlessly occupied Laos, Vietnam, and Cambodia and stole land from Thailand for 100+ years. [/quote:2tni33wp] I would tend to consider your comments in line with the brain washed anti-communist rhetoric of Senator McCarthy and others, again i dont intend that as a personal attack, more the left over feeling of a lot Americans who were raised in a time of constant propaganda. I think if you read some more S.E. Asian history you shall discover that Ho Chi Minh himself came to The United States and the UN in order gain support for a democratic Vietnam, a chance that unfortunately due to France's standing was never grasped. What did happen was that Vietnam defeated an ex-colonial, weak, overstretched France to gain a semblence of freedom until America meddled in affairs(in the name of stoping the reds of course) with puppet governments that infuriated even the south Vietnamese to the point of rebellion. And this was all before the Viet-US war which ended in anything but victory for USA. Slightly getting off topic here but what im trying to say is that USA aren't or weren't the incorruptible and morally perfect saviours of which you describe. Capitalism is of course better than communism however it doesnt grant a country carte blanche to behave as they see fit and then to expect thanks and praise without criticism. [quote:2tni33wp]No you don't, because if you had a t-shirt like that about the monarchy, you'd go to prison, so dah! Last points: America has been a strategic partner that has helped keep Thailand independent for a long time. Even after WWII when your country sided with Nazis, Fascists, and Imperialistic Japan, the French and English wanted to put Thailand under their rule, it was America that kept Thailand free from their colonialist tendencies. America is also Thailand largest export market and 2nd largest investor after Japan in bringing new, high paying jobs to Thailand like the ones my company brought here that pay salaries between B45,000-95,000/month versus the B5,000/mo that's Thailand minimum wage salary (and they work 40 hrs/wk for that, not 60 hrs/wk)[/quote:2tni33wp] I did edit the my last post to say that im European, Irish in fact. I was simply referring to your question asking would i be offended to see my countrys flag on the teeshirt. And while i of course agree that USA have in many ways been a force for the greater good in a lot of areas in the world the underlying point of my previous post is that this can't come at whatever price the USA demands and if somebody decides to criticise America or any western state, no matter how trivial, perhaps instead of letting it get to us we may remember that we're all as imperfect as each other.

    • gohmer commented : [quote="Hard_done_by":3mn3j5ld][quote="Na Fianna":3mn3j5ld] ... I would tend to consider your comments in line with the brain washed anti-communist rhetoric of Senator McCarthy and others, again i dont intend that as a personal attack, more the left over feeling of a lot Americans who were raised in a time of constant propaganda. I think if you read some more S.E. Asian history you shall discover that Ho Chi Minh himself came to The United States and the UN in order gain support for a democratic Vietnam, a chance that unfortunately due to France's standing was never grasped. What did happen was that Vietnam defeated an ex-colonial, weak, overstretched France to gain a semblence of freedom until America meddled in affairs(in the name of stoping the reds of course) with puppet governments that infuriated even the south Vietnamese to the point of rebellion. ...[/quote:3mn3j5ld] Well posted.[/quote:3mn3j5ld] This is another example of how Europeans view Americans, which is just as ignorant as you all claiming we are ignorant about the rest of the world. First, the vast, vast majority of Americans today believe McCarthy was an outright idiot. You'd have to dig hard with someone over 65 to find a believer there, and there's a crap load of documentaries shown on American TV daily about that era and how wrong crazy he was. Second, I too am Irish (1 of the 30 million that choose America over the 5 million that chose to stay in Ireland). Third, I actually believe that communism is a quantum leap forward for countries like China and Vietnam compared to the brutal colonialism of the French or the greedy, power hoarding land-owners of China during the various dynasties. I will tell you also that I think, despite his completely idiotic policies that led to millions dying, Mao is a hero of China. He ended forced marriages and brought love to China for the first time in its history, an unintended consequence of shipping millions of youth off to co-ed work camps. Forth, regardless of past brain-washing, it is historical fact that the Soviet Union took over eastern Europe, lied to the allies and had its own agenda for extending its power. If you read Harford MacKinder's essay on Geographical Politics (1904) - [url:3mn3j5ld]http://www.mindef.gov.sg/safti/pointer/back/journals/1998/Vol24_3/8.htm[/url:3mn3j5ld], which is credited for being one of the most influential theories of world dominance, and what guided Hitler's military agenda, and later Stalin's, you will see that McCarthy actually had good cause for worrying about communism. Fifth, there are small countries around the world that America is credited for having a bad reputation due to intervention, Chile, El Salvador, Iran, etc; however, all of these are unfortunate collateral damage due to the bigger picture of the conflict with Stalin and other Soviet leaders. For those affected in these countries, America will always be view as the bad guy, but bottom line is that every western country was dependent on the US for stopping them (Soviets). And, I would argue that had the Soviets not been a world threat for 50 years, there would have been drastically different agendas in Asia. Consider the fact that the Marshal Plan completely rebuilt Japan - and Germany - after WWII. That was to bring peace and stability. Fighting the Soviets was the end game, and thank god we won.

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