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    Thai tradition

    By Anonymous, Created on: 16/12/2007, Last updated on: 03/01/2009

    » Hello Colin, AD, Robert etc. I have been reading your posting in this forum and I have to say I most agree with you. Just a breeze of common sense and down to earth wisdom in a desert of plain stupidity and naivety. Unsuspecting and gullible farangs are easy pray for abuse and scams. Many of these...

    • 53 replies, 35,047 views

    Forum

    About Face.

    By Sean Moran, Created on: 14/10/2008, Last updated on: 13/04/2014

    » One olde axiom that comes to mind is, '[i:3b539sim]If you can't say something nice, then keep your mouth s.h.u.t.[/i:3b539sim]' Just a thread that pertains to one of the cultural differences one might notice in venturing from a typical 'westernised' society of the assertive kind to the shores of...

    • Sean Moran commented : [quote="klauskent":1449ci80]Sean, Great story.Pictures and all. Both u and fast eddy write beautifully. Also, good topic on altruism brought up by fast eddy. I would have to guess that the fruit vendor in front of E shrine probably knew less of why that shrine was built and the significance of it than some of us expats. In any case the burden of proof lies within us to establish real boundaries and adhere to them. So I guess we are moving the topic of this thread to altruism in Thai society. but again we can't really expect too much from a fruit vendor...can we. but fast eddy's point was well made and duly noted. k[/quote:1449ci80] I hope that it didn't come across as too ghey, what I wrote yesterday. It's fairly much the way things were regarding my good luck on first arriving in Thailand, and how the rural location probably helped me to meet decent people who treated me as a foreigner but in a friendly sort of way, without (mostly) thinking of trying to scam me. I was known as Mr Kangaloo, which did seem to come across as a term of endearment. I felt accepted. Not the way things tend to go in the big cities where there are millions of people cramped into little boxes who don't even know their next-door neighbours. There is a direct connection between the KMS and the young lady who was murdered that I wrote about in the Future of Issan thread and Anuchit's sister's restaurant - the two were almost across the road from each other, and the death of that girl still haunts me. I suppose that I get superstitious about respecting those who have helped me to avoid such tragic outcomes as what happened to her. I suppose there is a kind of platonic love for both she and my living friends, but looking back over the post, it comes across as a bit ghey to the reader. Sorry. It wasn't meant that way, but more about sincerity. Still, as you mention, I've taken off on a tangent to the thread topic that you have just written on, and only meant to broach the subject of altruism as a side issue, but perhaps there is more to add to that component of Face? We've focussed on responsibility (avoidance of) for quite a lot of the thread so far, until you posted the wise words about the precepts of Thai culture and how justice is served civilly, rather than with mad-dog assertiveness. Perhaps there is a subtle stick in that side, and the merit-making altruistic tendency might be what peels the carrot? Excuse me while I take some time to read back over the recent posts since you first wrote and think of how these might all combine into the same, for I reckon you've already outlined this in your first post. I'll try to clarify this later today. ---o0o--- Well, it's approaching 8am in Thailand. I'm having a think on the association of merit-making with altruism, as the former might be viewed by some as a somwhat 'selfish' means of furthering one's good karma in this or the next life from what little I understand of it, while the latter I consider as purely that of true selfless acts of kindness to others, exclusive of kin altruism. It's a very fine line, and probably best not to differentiate over such minor intercultural semantics. I reckon it works the same in the process of saving face for someone else in the event of minor issues. Still a lot more thinking to get through yet on how the idea of Face might be realted to merit-making, altruism, and the selfishness of one's belief in Karma. [quote:1449ci80]Respecting culture is great but, If you find yourself paying 10 times what something is worth then not only have you done yourself a great disservice but you are disabling the social and economic leveling mechanisms inherent within the culture. This can have the short term consequence of (what Karl Marx refers to as) [b:1449ci80]mystifying the indigenous[/b:1449ci80]. This process of mystification can easily be misconstrued and evaluated by Thais as either, 1) the reward for merit philosophy or 2) The Patron client relationship described by Mabbet.[/quote:1449ci80] It seems that by your mention of Marx's [i:1449ci80]mystifying the indigenous[/i:1449ci80] you have jagged the very first incident on that night on May 2nd, 2005 that basically saw the beginning of my friendship with Anuchit. Rather a coincidence, but you've put a name to the episode that I don't remember reading in the few chapters I've read on wool and coats and labour etc. Even to the point of estimating the multiplier of ten times, you guessed it, and seeing it's early in the morning and this is just one post in the thread, I hope I might be allowed to elaborate on what happened when I paid for my first meal in Thailand with a 1,000 baht note under the mistaken belief that it was a 100 baht note. The corner had folded over to cover the trailing zero and I didn't recognise the different markings. So, I'd arrived in Thailand the previous afternoon and been picked up at the airport by my friend and in some ways, 'sponsor', and driven from Don Muang to Rayong for the first night. Chalore and her husband took me to dinner in Ban Phe on the first night and let me stay in her brother's villa as he was away in Bangkok at the time. The next morning, my first ever in Thailand, she drove me up to Nikhom Pattana to show me around the markets, took me to breakfast, to the news-stand where she bought me the Bangkok Post and the Student Weekly. "This is what I tell the student to read." she said. We then found the apartment block in Mabkha where I was to spend the next few months, and she did the talking for me to help me move in at the monthly rate, which she paid for me herself incidently for that first month. I was then left to settle into the new room, (to put it mildly). I hadn't yet spent a single baht on anything. My wallet was full of new currency but I hadn't had time to sit down and work out what the different denominations looked like in a hurry. I'd learned that day from Chalore while we were up at the Pluak Daeng Dam sightseeing how to say [i:1449ci80]thank you[/i:1449ci80] in pasa Thai and apart from [i:1449ci80]hello[/i:1449ci80] that was all the language I spoke. I did take a walk up the road to the mini-mart to buy a mop and a broom and some detergent and stuff like that. I had the crazy idea that if I polished the floors, the rat-nest fragrance in the room might dissipate. So dinner time came. The buses stop running at around 18:00 in Mabkha. No taxis. Where the dickens am I gonna get some tucker on foot? Potato chips from the mini mart perhaps? It turned out that there were plenty of raan ahaans right near the apartments, and Mrs Pueng had the kitchen running for dining in the restaurant at the apartments or else room service if required. I wasn't aware of these options back then. I walked by a few eateries thinking that they were private homes until I'd ventured about half a mile up the road. That's when I came across the Silver Star, (the restaurant in the photo above). Anuchit and his 'sister' (chef and boss), really rolled out the red carpet for the wayward farang that night. I couldn't even remember how to say [i:1449ci80]khao phad[/i:1449ci80], but he spoke just enough English to make me feel that I was in the right place for a feed, and there I was at the special table with DEEP-FRIED CHICKEN! Heaps and heaps of fried chicken with some kind of chilly sauce and some other foods I can't remember after so long. Wow! What gives? I sensed this "special treatment" as something I wasn't really keen on, but we all played along with it for the night. I drank too much bia Chang from having so much fun. When it came time for the check-bin, I wasn't sure what to do, but I was the only customer in the restaurant that night, apart from a few blokes that I later got to meet - mates of Anuchit just dropped by to watch television. The total came to 115 baht, but I had to offer a tip, of course. It was such a rare treat to get the movie-star service so unexpectedly. So that's when I determined that 150 baht would pay for the meal and the beer, and include a reasonable tip without "mystifying the indigenous". So I paid the two banknotes, said thanks in my new language that I'd just learned that morning, and headed home, stopping on the way at the minimart for some supplies to go with the HBO and the next morning. It was only then when I went to pay for the ciggies and iced tea that I realised that I'd accidentally used the only 1,000 baht note I had to pay the check-bin, and I didn't have enough cash to cover the minimart bill. So I was rather confused. I still didn't know the words for "sorry" but I tried to look surprised and by gesture explain to the shop attendant that I had made a monetary mistake. If it wasn't for the embarrassment, it was probably quite an hilarious event. I went back up the road to the Silver Star where they were closing up. I should mention that these mates of Anuchit's were BIG blokes. I wasn't all that keen on the idea of getting assertive about MY mistake. I was actually a little wary of having even walked back in, not having any idea of how people in Thailand react to situations like this. Anuchit saw me walk in and knew innediately why I'd come back. The other three just sat there staring at me trying not to burst out laughing. No problem. 900 baht in 100s handed straight back to me. Some months later, Anuchit did mention that at the time, he thought I was offering a very big tip for the good service, although considering the additional 50 baht note on top of the 1,000, I reckon he was just trying to politely explain how a farang and his money soon go separate ways, and more fool me if I'd walked off and not realised my own stupidity. That old saying, don't look a gift horse in the mouth probably applies fairly well. If someone had paid me 10 times what I asked and then walked off, I can't be sure whether I'd run after them to tell them, although with shops and places and people I know, I try to make a point of returning any overpayment of change in a transaction. It happens once or twice over a year. What I see as having begun the friendship back on that night, was the honest way he went about sorting things out with no denial or any kind of attempt to dissuade me from asking for the change for the accidental 1,000 baht note that had the corner folded over so the numbers read 1,00 and I didn't know any better. These were big blokes. If he'd just told me to get out and go home, I know that that is exactly what I would have done. One might say I was still mystified by the indigenous back then. I hope that this long-winded saga isn't getting too off-topic. I rekcon it relates to the thread reasonably well, but I'll refrain from adding anymore photos if that's okay. I have plenty but I don't think anyone really needs to see them.

    • 61 replies, 76,687 views

    Forum

    Do you speak English Khun Noy?

    By surapong, Created on: 26/07/2010, Last updated on: 07/01/2016

    » Ms Noy’s gonna need some English lessons in order to pass her tests to prove that her command of the language is good enough before being granted her visa. The number of Thai women from the Northeast marrying foreigners is rising every year. Over the past few months, almost 2,000 people have shown...

    • beau58 commented : [quote="MICHAI":ldfruttv]I am curisouly thre're many E-San women are married to the foreigner,many fo them that i met in Europe and elsewhere they're not genuine Thai, but Laos women they're speaking not the same dialect like Ppl in Bangkok[/quote:ldfruttv] Very few people in Thailand are "genuine Thai". It's one of the great myths perpetuated and systemized by the dominant Thai establishment centred in Bangkok and the central plains, the traditional home of the ethnic Thais. In reality, the country is actually ethnically and linguistically quite diverse. For example, the Isaan language is predominately drawn from Lao, although itself broken down into many regional dialects. Also, in parts of Isaan, such as Buriram and Surin people speak Mon-Khmer and in places like Udon Thani and Nakhon Phanom they speak Nyaw. While Thais consider Thai superior to Isaan-Lao, which they somewhat derisively see as merely a Northeast dialect mixing Thai and Lao, it's actually Thai that is more likely a dialect of Lao, than a separate language. Among the many other languages and dialects spoken are Southern Thai, Lanna (Northern Thai), Yawi-Malay, Phuan, Lua, Shan, and Thai Dam. The truth is, the further one gets from Bangkok, the less successful proper Thai language acquisition becomes as the regional languages and dialects are the local lingua franca. In Isaan, or Lanna (Northern Thailand), Thai is seldom spoken, unless to Thais who are from outside the region. Then Thai becomes the common language out of necessity more than desire. Therefore, is it any wonder that learning other languages such as English becomes a major challenge for the majority of the people.

    • nateswag commented : [quote="beau58":3ummj5m8][quote="MICHAI":3ummj5m8]I am curisouly thre're many E-San women are married to the foreigner,many fo them that i met in Europe and elsewhere they're not genuine Thai, but Laos women they're speaking not the same dialect like Ppl in Bangkok[/quote:3ummj5m8] Very few people in Thailand are "genuine Thai". It's one of the great myths perpetuated and systemized by the dominant Thai establishment centred in Bangkok and the central plains, the traditional home of the ethnic Thais. In reality, the country is actually ethnically and linguistically quite diverse. For example, the Isaan language is predominately drawn from Lao, although itself broken down into many regional dialects. Also, in parts of Isaan, such as Buriram and Surin people speak Mon-Khmer and in places like Udon Thani and Nakhon Phanom they speak Nyaw. While Thais consider Thai superior to Isaan-Lao, which they somewhat derisively see as merely a Northeast dialect mixing Thai and Lao, it's actually Thai that is more likely a dialect of Lao, than a separate language. Among the many other languages and dialects spoken are Southern Thai, Lanna (Northern Thai), Yawi-Malay, Phuan, Lua, Shan, and Thai Dam. The truth is, the further one gets from Bangkok, the less successful proper Thai language acquisition becomes as the regional languages and dialects are the local lingua franca. In Isaan, or Lanna (Northern Thailand), Thai is seldom spoken, unless to Thais who are from outside the region. Then Thai becomes the common language out of necessity more than desire. Therefore, is it any wonder that learning other languages such as English becomes a major challenge for the majority of the people.[/quote:3ummj5m8] You've definitely done your research. Most Thais don't even know where they came from or who they are descended from. A lot of Central Thais are also descended from Lao people. When Bangkok was founded it was over 50% Lao from Luang Prabang, Laos and Champasack, Laos. King Thaksin(Chinese) and then King Rama 1(Mon) forcibly brought tons of Laotians to populate Central Thailand. Then after Siam defeated the Lao Lanxang Kingdom in 1827-28, Rama III brought even more Laotians from Vientiane to populate Bangkok and the surrounding provinces. They mirrored their new kingdom after what Vientiane was. In fact the majority of temples in BKK of that period was built by Lao designers/labor and built in mirror image to how Vientiane, Laos had looked like. Tons of Khmers were also brought over. This is all Thai history you can only learn outside of Thailand. Northern Thais can be a bit arrogant but Lanna itself was always a little brother to other Kingdoms(Burmese, Thai, Lao). Northern Thai culture is a mixture of various Tai(Tai Yai, Tai Lue, Lao), Mon and Burmese culture. The term Khammuang(language) and Khonmuang(people) is just a term created by BKK to group Northern Thais together.

    • 130 replies, 902,399 views

  • News & article

    Irrigation project in Phitsanulok

    Jon Fernquest, Published on 21/09/2010

    » In Phitsanulok a "land consolidation" model will rearrange farms to make efficient use of irrigation water delivered via dikes and ditches.

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    Xen Hideaway Resort Kanchanaburi

    Hotels & resorts, Muang Kanchanaburi, Kanchanaburi

    Price : 2,000 - 9,900 Baht, Posted on 24/09/2010

    » Xen Hideaway Resort Kanchanaburi (also called Mida Resort) is located in the Mueang district of Kanchanaburi on Kanchanaburi - Srinagarind Dam highway just a short distance away from the famous Bridge Over the River Khwai. The resort is surrounded

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    Lam Nam Nan National Park

    Nature & wilderness, Tha Pla, Uttaradit

    Price : N/A, Posted on 17/10/2010

    » Lam Nam Nan National Park is the source of water for the Nan River and Sirikit Dam, and consists of a fertile forest, which has economically valuable plants and a variety of wildlife.

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    Kaeng Krachan National Park

    Nature & wilderness, Kang Krachan, Phetchaburi

    Price : N/A, Posted on 17/10/2010

    » Kaeng Krachan National Park covers some 45 square kilometres of both ground and water reservoirs. The huge forest of the Kaeng Krachan dam is on knotty mountain ranges. Most of the mountains are granite while a few are limestone and many are full of

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    Nam Phong National Park

    Nature & wilderness, Nong Ruea, Khon Kaen

    Price : N/A, Posted on 18/10/2010

    » Nam Phong National Park is a sandstone mountain range quite akin to most mountain ranges in northeastern Thailand. The Phong, Choen and Chi are the main rivers that flow into the the Ubonrat Dam. Some steep mountains and cliffs come into contact with

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    Flood threat for Bangkok

    Terry Fredrickson, Published on 19/10/2010

    » All that water flooding upcountry areas has to go somewhere and parts of Bangkok are likely to be submerged in the coming days.

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